Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Mid-High Stakes Limit Discussions of mid-high stakes limit Texas Hold'em

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-13-2017, 02:35 AM   #1
up2ng
newbie
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 40
Decisions Become Tougher On Every Street

Full Ring 20 - 40 Hold 'Em

I thought that this might be a fun hand to post as a street by street play along because I feel like the decisions on every street are worth discussion, but I don't know if that's a thing here any more so I'll just go ahead and post up to the turn decision.

Both Villains are winning players. I won't post more specific reads here at this time because they both read these forums.

V1 open raises button minus 4, V2 3bets hijack, Hero has 99 in the big blind and ? (calls 2 cold) V1 calls.

Flop: 543

Hero ? (checks) V1 donk bets, V2 raises. Hero ? (calls 2 cold) V1 calls.

Turn: 7

Hero ? (checks) V1 checks, V2 bets. Hero ?
up2ng is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2017, 02:52 AM   #2
CrazyLond
veteran
 
CrazyLond's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 2,592
Re: Decisions Become Tougher On Every Street

I would play preflop and flop the same way. I would fold on this turn card though.
CrazyLond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2017, 04:11 AM   #3
KL03
old hand
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Where they don't respect my raises
Posts: 1,233
Re: Decisions Become Tougher On Every Street

pre is standard. I would k/3b the flop.
KL03 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2017, 07:00 AM   #4
leavesofliberty
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 5,738
Re: Decisions Become Tougher On Every Street

Midstakes I prefer a call here but also calling w AA and some others for balance. With better reads I am willing to fold or 4bet depending. Is cap 4 or 5?

I think flop is a tough spot as is the turn. Can't speculate w/o some ranges. You are wawb so cheap showdown would be nice. I'd consider donking the flop.
leavesofliberty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2017, 07:14 AM   #5
SetofJacks
veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,110
Re: Decisions Become Tougher On Every Street

I'd 4-bet pre.
SetofJacks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2017, 07:29 AM   #6
leavesofliberty
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 5,738
Re: Decisions Become Tougher On Every Street

V1 I am putting on KJ+,66+. V2 can beat that range. H is not in great shape v those ranges. Though there is value in seeing a flop, so H should call. Heavy action w/o 99 improving and it's a fold. Better reads and you can play the hand better pre, but I'd rather fold than 4-bet w/o reads. Calling also w AKs, fold AQo and call AQs. Folding 77, 88 is borderline fold.
leavesofliberty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2017, 06:47 PM   #7
asmitty
Pooh-Bah
 
asmitty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: betting if checked to
Posts: 4,176
Re: Decisions Become Tougher On Every Street

I think I like every street.

I call 100% of my continuing range preflop here, and I definitely would not fold AQo or 77.

Flop is a tough spot. I think I just call 2 cold here because the turn card will dramatically change our equity, although I'd feel better about taking this line with a bigger overpair. (This is the moral of the "Two Overpair Hands" chapter in one of the Sklansky/Malmuth books.)

Turn . . . yeah it sucks to fold an overpair, but this is a terrible turn card and you can dump it.
asmitty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2017, 05:08 PM   #8
Like
journeyman
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 220
Re: Decisions Become Tougher On Every Street

Quote:
Originally Posted by asmitty View Post
I think I like every street.

I call 100% of my continuing range preflop here, and I definitely would not fold AQo or 77.

Flop is a tough spot. I think I just call 2 cold here because the turn card will dramatically change our equity, although I'd feel better about taking this line with a bigger overpair. (This is the moral of the "Two Overpair Hands" chapter in one of the Sklansky/Malmuth books.)

Turn . . . yeah it sucks to fold an overpair, but this is a terrible turn card and you can dump it.
What are good turn cards though? Any duece, 6, or even 7 is no good, any paint or ace isnt good and any spade stinks too. Folding flop feels weak as hell but its worth thinking about
Like is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2017, 06:20 PM   #9
Omahaisbetter
newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 45
Re: Decisions Become Tougher On Every Street

I agree with preflop thoughts about 99 being a call 88 prob being a call but 77 and smaller pairs a fold. Im definitely seeing a flop w AQ. Flop is really pretty bad since we have few ways to improve our hand we were already behind pre flop maybe 40 pct of the time now we are trailing 33-55 and 45 suited. 66 and two overcards with a flushdraw have good equity and are easier to play aggressively on turn and river. I think turn is a fold most of the time and maybe the flop Im folding 25 pct depending on who the opponents are, ck raising 25 pct and calling 50 pct. It is a very interesting hand since minus a 9 on turn or river you will never feel great about your hand. Obv the 7 spades worst card poss. Makes me think it was an ignition run out but I think the flop considerations are compelling.
Omahaisbetter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2017, 06:25 PM   #10
up2ng
newbie
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 40
Re: Decisions Become Tougher On Every Street

This game has a 4 bet cap.

Quote:
Pre is standard.
Quote:
I'd 4bet pre.
As has been discussed in some previous threads, there are a few different ways to approach this preflop decision depending on how we want to build our overall strategy, each of which seems to have some pros and cons. We can just call with our entire continuing range. We can reraise with our strong hands for value and just call with the rest of our (capped) continuing range. We can use a reraise or fold strategy. We can try to construct reraising and calling ranges which are both balanced by using mixed (suit based) strategies where we have at least some combos of every hand in our continuing range included in both ranges.

I feel like debating and discussing these various approaches can be a worthwhile exercise. Without revealing too much about my own strategic choices in this spot, suffice it to say that I feel that we should continue with this hand and that I am comfortable with my decision to just call with this particular hand in this particular spot. To me, this felt like the easiest of all of my decisions in this hand.

Quote:
I think flop is a tough spot as is the turn. Can't speculate w/o some ranges. You are wawb so cheap showdown would be nice. I'd consider donking the flop.
I'm not sure what you mean by most of this. What ranges do you need? I have given the preflop positions and actions of my opponents and have noted that they are both winning players. I'm also not sure that I agree that we are way ahead / way behind -- if my opponents are drawing then I would be "slightly" or "somewhat" ahead imo. I also generally disagree with the mentality of trying for a "cheap showdown" as I feel that this way of thinking can often lead to poor play. Remember also that we are out of position in this hand so we have a lot less control over this anyway. Why would you consider donking the flop? What is the thought process behind making that play with this hand?

Quote:
I would k/3b the flop.
Why would you take that line on this flop? What is the thought process behind making that play with this hand?

Quote:
Flop is a tough spot. I think I just call 2 cold here because the turn card will dramatically change our equity, although I'd feel better about taking this line with a bigger overpair. (This is the moral of the "Two Overpair Hands" chapter in one of the Sklansky/Malmuth books.)
As noted in the OP, I think I agree with the action of just calling two bets on the flop as awkward as that is, but I think I disagree with your thought process here. If I recall, the idea behind the "two overpair hands" concepts is that we might take different lines depending on if we have a small equity advantage which may or may not improve on future streets vs. if we want to go ahead and immediately push a large equity advantage for value. In addition, we might have an inability to protect our hand on the small street due to the pot size.

In this case, however, I felt that we are simply in a portion of our range that is behind -- but not so far behind that we should fold, due to the price we are getting to call.

I did feel that this was a tough spot though so I am interested in hearing more thoughts behind why we might take an alternative line here.

Quote:
I would fold on this turn card though.
Quote:
Turn . . . yeah it sucks to fold an overpair, but this is a terrible turn card and you can dump it.
So on the turn was where I felt the most lost in this hand. I am obviously hoping that the turn checks through which would give me more confidence that I might actually have the best hand -- unfortunately, neither of these opponents are face up with their post flop ranges in that way.

Let me talk about my somewhat confused thought process on the turn and reveal my turn action to foster more discussion.

I agree that this is a terrible turn card for my HAND. However, I felt at the time that this could be an excellent turn card for my RANGE. At least for my perceived range -- remember, I am in the big blind and I just checked and called two cold on a dynamic flop. My post flop range should now be pretty draw heavy . . . and a ton of draws just got there on this turn! Any 6x makes a straight. Any flush draw makes a flush. As the big blind with this post flop line, I felt that it would seem like I could have a lot more of these hands than my opponents (this may or may not actually be true).



. . . Hero raises the turn . . .



Now I actually DO have the ability to force V1 to fold various 9 out and 10 out draws which benefits me greatly if I actually am ahead. (But it doesn't benefit me hardly at all if I am behind and the hand shows down) I might even be able to get V1 to fold a couple of better hands.

When V2 bets the turn, I really don't like my hand any more. Calling and not closing the action felt a little too gross to the point where it seemed like it was probably slightly bad. And yet, vs tough winning players in a large pot (V2 in particular can be pretty balanced and does not have an overpair here always imo) I just really didn't want to fold here either. So, ultimately at game speed I decided that this exact hand represented the top of my folding range and decided to turn it into a multiway "bluff". The problem is, it's REALLY hard to see V2 ever folding better before showdown on most runouts. But, there is a parley that I am sometimes ahead of V2 but behind V1, IF V1 has certain hands in his flop donking range (that's a big if though).

Now, I WILL have some delayed big hands that take this line for value, and I will also have plenty of draws that got there which also take this line for value. And yet, I am concerned that I might be over bluffing in this spot if I am bluffing with this hand.

I am ready for the criticism. Fire away!
up2ng is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2017, 08:14 PM   #11
DonkeyOnTilt
adept
 
DonkeyOnTilt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: CP 20/40 playing like a tagfish
Posts: 767
Re: Decisions Become Tougher On Every Street

That is a spicy turn of events. I'm kinda digging the thought process and I'm very interested to read the replies of the good players in this forum.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
DonkeyOnTilt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2017, 08:18 PM   #12
chillrob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chillrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: under a dark cloud
Posts: 9,792
Re: Decisions Become Tougher On Every Street

I thought the "bluffing with the worst hand you would otherwise fold" theory only applied to headsup situations on the river.
chillrob is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2017, 09:17 PM   #13
jdr0317
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 5,483
Re: Decisions Become Tougher On Every Street

I like hand as played and would fold this turn card. If our opponents didn't have us beat before, they almost certainly have us beat now.

I like the idea of bluff raising this turn w/ a made(ish) hand, but this may be the worst hand to do it with. This hand has almost no equity against made hands (1-2 outs versus overpairs or the unexpected set, dead to flushes or the unexpected 6x). Plus, if we raise this hand, I suspect we're overbluffing a ton, as we have many better candidates to make this play with (AsK, AsQ, maybe our AKcc/AQcc all have decent equity against hands as strong as JsJ and block some "never folding" hands; 88 will often have 5-6 outs when it gets action as well). In general, the lower equity the hand, the more often a bluff has to work, and 99 has pretty poor equity and no good removal to work with.

I also don't think 99 is the best hand here nearly enough to justify pot manipulation to maximize winning potential; both opponents would need incredibly funky ranges (and given that I know both opponents, and both are good, aggressive players, I highly doubt this is the case).

With regard to overbluffing, I think you'll be doing a lot of it by check raising this turn card. Even a delayed AA/KK may not pull the trigger on this card (especially if they don't have a spade), meaning your range really becomes limited to flushes (I don't think they think you're entering the pot with 77-). Given your flush range may be, like, ATs-AKs and KQs, you're really either going to have to bluff almost never, or value xr some hands you don't want to, to balance out. Like AA no spade played this way may still have to be a raise/call 3 bets against this particular preflop 3 bettor.

So since it's hard to construct a large value xr range, I want to do a lot of folding of my worst made hands. 99 no spade sounds like a good start.

Last edited by jdr0317; 05-14-2017 at 09:22 PM.
jdr0317 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2017, 09:20 PM   #14
jdr0317
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 5,483
Re: Decisions Become Tougher On Every Street

Quote:
Originally Posted by Like View Post
What are good turn cards though? Any duece, 6, or even 7 is no good, any paint or ace isnt good and any spade stinks too. Folding flop feels weak as hell but its worth thinking about
K-T is actually fine-ish for us. Both of our opponents look like they don't really have many naked overcard hands that beat us on those cards (especially offsuit Q-T), so we can feel okay continuing on those. Like if we're behind on a turn Jd, it's almost always because we were behind anyway.
jdr0317 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2017, 11:30 PM   #15
Like
journeyman
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 220
Re: Decisions Become Tougher On Every Street

good point.

I like your play OP, turning your hand into a bluff here seems good to me. Given that you called in the BB pre and called 2 cold on the flop, your hand looks super duper strong here. Keep going...what happens next?
Like is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2017, 12:24 AM   #16
leavesofliberty
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 5,738
Re: Decisions Become Tougher On Every Street

I thought about bluffing, but think an overpair is calling down though. A 6 isn't really in your range.
leavesofliberty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2017, 12:29 AM   #17
Montrealcorp
Pooh-Bah
 
Montrealcorp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 5,546
Re: Decisions Become Tougher On Every Street

I like how OP played and I would call turn here folding to any further bet (beside a 2 outers on the river).
Montrealcorp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2017, 01:21 AM   #18
phunkphish
veteran
 
phunkphish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,706
Re: Decisions Become Tougher On Every Street

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyLond View Post
I would play preflop and flop the same way. I would fold on this turn card though.
^.^
phunkphish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2017, 10:34 AM   #19
leavesofliberty
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 5,738
Re: Decisions Become Tougher On Every Street

I don't think you can rep this board after calling three from the big, so I also fold the turn. 77 should be like the absolute lowest in pristine conditions, and it probably gets payed-off here.
leavesofliberty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2017, 11:21 AM   #20
PaulValente
grinder
 
PaulValente's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 562
Re: Decisions Become Tougher On Every Street

It sounds like I'm calling 2 from the BB a lot wider than most itt, so that will effect post flop strategy, but I would consider donking this flop. I think we should have a donking range here since this flop hits my range the hardest (my rough guess range jumps from 31% preflop to 36% on this flop) and this flop is getting checked through more than most, especially 3way.

There are also 3-way implicit collusion considerations where you open the door for V1 to raise to face V2 with 2 bets, but I actually think this situation works against you here since V2 has the stronger range it. It becomes better to try to x/r to face V1 with 2 bets.

But, I'd guess 99 should both donk and x/r with some frequency, so you can't go too wrong Decisions Become Tougher On Every Street

Last edited by PaulValente; 05-15-2017 at 11:29 AM.
PaulValente is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2017, 11:32 AM   #21
PaulValente
grinder
 
PaulValente's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 562
Decisions Become Tougher On Every Street

Once it's bet and raised back to you I don't think you can do much with this hand besides calling, regardless of overall strategy. 3betting seems like suicide and folding seems too tight.
PaulValente is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2017, 02:27 PM   #22
KL03
old hand
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Where they don't respect my raises
Posts: 1,233
Re: Decisions Become Tougher On Every Street

Quote:
Originally Posted by up2ng View Post
Why would you take that line on this flop? What is the thought process behind making that play with this hand?
I think our hand is ahead of their ranges. Flop donk seems like a small pair or a draw. Given this and your perceived weakness PF, many players in V2's spot will raise their entire range on the flop.
KL03 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2017, 04:22 PM   #23
phunkphish
veteran
 
phunkphish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,706
Re: Decisions Become Tougher On Every Street

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulValente View Post
It sounds like I'm calling 2 from the BB a lot wider than most itt, so that will effect post flop strategy, but I would consider donking this flop. I think we should have a donking range here since this flop hits my range the hardest (my rough guess range jumps from 31% preflop to 36% on this flop) and this flop is getting checked through more than most, especially 3way.
My default for defending a 3b from BB is to call roughly the same range% as 3-bettors range%. That would not include 66-. Even if it did, I disagree that 345 would hit BB's range the hardest. Change it to 789 then you might have a case.
phunkphish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2017, 04:24 PM   #24
DeathDonkey
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
DeathDonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Scottsdale
Posts: 12,216
Re: Decisions Become Tougher On Every Street

A bluff 3 bet would be really awesome if you had AsKx, but I think 99 is just too much of a Hail Mary. You have no equity and have to get two strong hands to fold.
DeathDonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2017, 04:34 PM   #25
jdr0317
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 5,483
Re: Decisions Become Tougher On Every Street

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathDonkey View Post
A bluff 3 bet would be really awesome if you had AsKx, but I think 99 is just too much of a Hail Mary. You have no equity and have to get two strong hands to fold.
This.

I think if you use AsKx sometimes and 88 no spade very rarely as a bluff, that should be enough.

Given our equity situation, AsK could have up to 36% equity against BTN's b/c range, while 99 is atrocious (6.4% may be a rosy estimate). We need immediate bet/folds of around 13% for a 99 bluff to be immediately profitable (and he's not going to be folding this board 13% of the time, and if anything will be underfolding here), while AsK needs very few folds to be the best option in a vacuum (and x/r that hand is clearly better than x/f).
jdr0317 is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:44 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online