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Old 09-21-2014, 10:15 PM   #1
limitdonk1
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is Commerce 40-80 "softer" than the 20-40?

Over the last month I have probably played 5 sessions each of the 20 and 40 game at commerce. in the 20 game the games have mostly been tight passive, with most players generally playing decent preflop and unimaginative ABC fit or fold poker postflop.

The 40 on the other hand using a litttle bit of game selection i have more often ended up in "good" action packed games with 5+ players routinely seeing flops for multiple bets with a lot of action postflop.

As one would expect the best players in the 40 are much much much better than the best players in the 20, and even the "fish" who are seeing 50+% of flops are aggressive and fairly good hand readers postflop, which can put you in some tough spots.

That being said I seriously wonder if the generally extra looseness (and the fact it is the same rake at double the stakes) makes the 40 a "better" game, assuming one has the bankroll to withstand the variance and can adjust their game appropriately.

Anyone else familiar with these games and have any thoughts on matter?
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Old 09-21-2014, 10:33 PM   #2
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Re: is Commerce 40-80 "softer" than the 20-40?

I agree with pretty much everything. Well, maybe not the good hand readers part.
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Old 09-21-2014, 10:42 PM   #3
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Re: is Commerce 40-80 "softer" than the 20-40?

the step up to the 100 game is even better.

the question is if you can take the pain.
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Old 09-22-2014, 03:58 AM   #4
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Re: is Commerce 40-80 "softer" than the 20-40?

No. There is a greater percentage of good players at 40. You are comparing non-game selected 20 to game-selected 40, but when I played the 20 basically full time I game selected like crazy, played in many excellent games, and won a fair amount of money.

One thing you might not realize is that there are times when the 20 is full of regulars and other times when it is tremendously juicy. Friday and Saturday nights and during tournaments are particularly good. Choosing what times to play is part of game selection.

If you select your 20 games well, they are easier than the 40 games. No way would I have attained the same or better number of big bets per hour in the 40 that I did in the 20.
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Old 09-22-2014, 09:31 AM   #5
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Re: is Commerce 40-80 "softer" than the 20-40?

afaik there arent any good players i know of that play 20 and there definitely is at 40 but you can usually game select well enough that you can get a game thats as soft as 20.and with the rake being so steep its pretty much not worth playing 20
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Old 09-22-2014, 09:35 AM   #6
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Re: is Commerce 40-80 "softer" than the 20-40?

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Originally Posted by pgcounty View Post
the step up to the 100 game is even better.

the question is if you can take the pain.
the 100 game is fat tougher than 40. biggest jump youll ever see in live poker in terms of skill level
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Old 09-22-2014, 09:36 PM   #7
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Re: is Commerce 40-80 "softer" than the 20-40?

The 20 is waaaaay softer. Good players don't play 20 for long since the 40 is good too. Any reg who has played 20 for a long time is bad. It's true that the best 40 games are as good as 20 games, but you can't just jump in and sit in the best 40 games when you see one - you have to play in bad (or worse, anyway) games too.

The 100 is generally tough and I would bet that more than half the pros who play it consistently would be better off in the 40 or 60.
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Old 09-22-2014, 10:01 PM   #8
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is Commerce 40-80 "softer" than the 20-40?

How many of each are running on a typical Wednesday night?

FYI at Bay 101 it's typically 3-4 20's 1-2 40's and 1 80. Each predictably tougher than the previous (in my somewhat limited experience)

Last edited by Mubsy Bogues; 09-22-2014 at 10:11 PM.
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Old 09-22-2014, 10:40 PM   #9
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Re: is Commerce 40-80 "softer" than the 20-40?

I don't play on Friday or Saturday nights, but everytime I have played in the last month there has been more 40 games than 20. I would say normally there are 4-5 40's and 2-3 20's. I assume this is because Commerce has a monopoly on the brown chip action and the yellow chip action is spread around 4 casinos.

When I have played the 20 there has been little to no chance for table selection as there was often only one main game and one must move. Also, in my limited sample size the biggest "fish" in the 20 tend to migrate into the 40. I am assuming this is because the 40 game is so much looser, that even though the good players are better, the "fish" are more attracted to the "action" 40 games. Most "fish" don't really like to play in tight passive games and I think this influences pretty much everyone who can affford it to play 40 instead.
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Old 09-22-2014, 11:08 PM   #10
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Re: is Commerce 40-80 "softer" than the 20-40?

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Originally Posted by limitdonk1 View Post
I don't play on Friday or Saturday nights, but everytime I have played in the last month there has been more 40 games than 20. I would say normally there are 4-5 40's and 2-3 20's. I assume this is because Commerce has a monopoly on the brown chip action and the yellow chip action is spread around 4 casinos.

When I have played the 20 there has been little to no chance for table selection as there was often only one main game and one must move. Also, in my limited sample size the biggest "fish" in the 20 tend to migrate into the 40. I am assuming this is because the 40 game is so much looser, that even though the good players are better, the "fish" are more attracted to the "action" 40 games. Most "fish" don't really like to play in tight passive games and I think this influences pretty much everyone who can afford it to play 40 instead.
Seriously, the 20 game is quite easy to win money in if you are a competent player. If you find that game has any significant degree of difficulty at all, I would not move up to 40; I would work on making more money in the 20.
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Old 09-23-2014, 01:28 PM   #11
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Re: is Commerce 40-80 "softer" than the 20-40?

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the 100 game is fat tougher than 40. biggest jump youll ever see in live poker in terms of skill level
With a sample size of 5 and (I would guess) mostly looking at $ results, our OP could basically draw any conclusion he wants. While what you're saying is true, the replies saying "might just as well play the 100" are probably also true.
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Old 09-25-2014, 12:38 PM   #12
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Re: is Commerce 40-80 "softer" than the 20-40?

How are the bikes limit games and matrix in San Jo? I only ever hear of bay and commerce for limit action?
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Old 09-25-2014, 01:23 PM   #13
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Re: is Commerce 40-80 "softer" than the 20-40?

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How are the bikes limit games and matrix in San Jo? I only ever hear of bay and commerce for limit action?
Only Bay and Commerce have LHE above 40/80. That's why you hear about them more.

Matrix spreads only SSLHE, e.g., 6/12, and the only other MSLHE in the SFBA is the Oaks 30/60. (There is 15/30 at the Oaks, AJs, and the Cal Grand but I don't consider those MSLHE.)

I recall hearing Bike spreading 40/80 when Jesse propped there but heard they stopped. I'm sure someone from LA can fill in the gaps.
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Old 09-25-2014, 03:49 PM   #14
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Re: is Commerce 40-80 "softer" than the 20-40?

Didn't Matrix offer some insane NL action, like 10/25 blinds NL?
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Old 09-25-2014, 04:22 PM   #15
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Re: is Commerce 40-80 "softer" than the 20-40?

They still have 20/40 regularly at the Bicycle, and last time I was there it was a very good game except when a table first started with a lot of props filling seats. They also had a great cashback program for regulars, though I think it has been reduced now.
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Old 09-25-2014, 04:37 PM   #16
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Re: is Commerce 40-80 "softer" than the 20-40?

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Originally Posted by spino1i View Post
the 100 game is fat tougher than 40. biggest jump youll ever see in live poker in terms of skill level
Why?
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Old 09-25-2014, 04:41 PM   #17
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Re: is Commerce 40-80 "softer" than the 20-40?

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Didn't Matrix offer some insane NL action, like 10/25 blinds NL?
I think it's a regular (but non-daily) game, but limitards have limited knowledge of such things.
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Old 09-25-2014, 06:10 PM   #18
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Re: is Commerce 40-80 "softer" than the 20-40?

10/25 runs M/W/F normally starts up early afternoon and can run till sunday morning for the Friday session @ m8trx
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Old 09-25-2014, 06:30 PM   #19
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Re: is Commerce 40-80 "softer" than the 20-40?

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No way would I have attained the same or better number of big bets per hour in the 40 that I did in the 20.
What were your win rates?
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Old 09-25-2014, 07:22 PM   #20
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Re: is Commerce 40-80 "softer" than the 20-40?

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Didn't Matrix offer some insane NL action, like 10/25 blinds NL?

3-days a week and they advertise $25/50 twice a month but have never seen it personally. Graton also had some huge NL when they opened, not sure about now (that's north of SF in Rohnert Park).
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Old 09-26-2014, 12:42 AM   #21
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Re: is Commerce 40-80 "softer" than the 20-40?

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What were your win rates?
When I was semi-full time, I was at 16 or 17 an hour in 20/40, plus jackpots.
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Old 09-27-2014, 03:01 PM   #22
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Re: is Commerce 40-80 "softer" than the 20-40?

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Why?
dont know why, it just is. The Commerce 100 game has always been way tougher than it should be. Im sure over time more of the pro's playing it will move down to 40 or go broke, but it might take quite a while.
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Old 09-28-2014, 12:32 AM   #23
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Re: is Commerce 40-80 "softer" than the 20-40?

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dont know why, it just is. The Commerce 100 game has always been way tougher than it should be. Im sure over time more of the pro's playing it will move down to 40 or go broke, but it might take quite a while.
I don't play this game so his is purely from observation. But I think the commerce 100 has a lot of the same problems as pokerstars. A bunch of regs sitting around refusing to play each other, swarming into a game as soon as a couple fish sit down, and them the game insta breaking when the fish bust.

It is pretty LOL and obvious when there is a good main game and 20 names on the board and thy don't even bother to try to start a second game. I think a lot I potential "fish" who would potentially play this game see exactly what is goin on and don't like this dynamic so they don't play.
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Old 09-28-2014, 06:58 PM   #24
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Re: is Commerce 40-80 "softer" than the 20-40?

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I don't play this game so his is purely from observation. But I think the commerce 100 has a lot of the same problems as pokerstars. A bunch of regs sitting around refusing to play each other, swarming into a game as soon as a couple fish sit down, and them the game insta breaking when the fish bust.

It is pretty LOL and obvious when there is a good main game and 20 names on the board and thy don't even bother to try to start a second game. I think a lot I potential "fish" who would potentially play this game see exactly what is goin on and don't like this dynamic so they don't play.
This is absolutely 100 percent true. If good players want good games, they need to act less than completely obvious and sometimes keep some lousy games going so the fish don't feel like they are being targeted.
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Old 09-29-2014, 12:14 AM   #25
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Re: is Commerce 40-80 "softer" than the 20-40?

Given that the Commerce 1/2 may be the biggest regularly spread game anywhere, it's going to suffer less from people acting like total dicks than games that may lose critical mass.
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