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Old 08-02-2017, 01:12 AM   #1
dadjoey
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Check Raising the River

Hand 1:

I open HJ with 88, Crusher 3 bets me next in from CO. I call

Flop: Ace Queen 8 rainbow

I check, Crusher checks.

Turn: 10

I lead, Crusher raises, I call.

River: Jack

I check, Crusher bets, I raise.


Hand 2:

I open EP with 88, MP 3-bets, H calls from the SB. I call.

Flop comes 8,3,2 rainbow.

H checks, I lead, MP calls, H calls.

Turn King

I lead, MP raises, H calls two, I call.

River is a brick.

Checks to MP who bets, H calls, I raise.
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Old 08-02-2017, 01:51 AM   #2
monikrazy
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Re: Check Raising the River

Hand 2 looks ok, I don't like raising the river hand 1
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Old 08-02-2017, 02:44 AM   #3
Montrealcorp
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Re: Check Raising the River

Hand 1 , is never folding better imo .
Unless he fold exactly TT .
I mean not even sure he folds it and it is such a tiny part of his range you target to fold, I think it is wasting money .

Hand 2 just 3 bet it right away on turn and colllect H money now since it is not sure he call river, no matter what the action would be.
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Old 08-02-2017, 04:48 AM   #4
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Re: Check Raising the River

Hand 1: Turning a set into a bluff? Would you play a straight this way as well?
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Old 08-02-2017, 09:08 AM   #5
leavesofliberty
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Re: Check Raising the River

The problem with hand #1 is that you're not bluffing that many hands off, so it's not a good bluffing candidate. Four sets, three combos each, that's 12 combos you're trying to bluff.

Hand #2, you are playing tricky. 3-betting the turn is standard unless you have a good read that your opponent will fire the river. There are some weaker kings here going for a free showdown.
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Old 08-03-2017, 04:45 PM   #6
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Re: Check Raising the River

Why?
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Old 08-03-2017, 06:31 PM   #7
DonkeyOnTilt
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Re: Check Raising the River

Hand 1 is spew, just call river. Hand 2 is fancy play, just jam turn.

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Old 08-04-2017, 04:11 AM   #8
asmitty
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Re: Check Raising the River

Hand 1 is not good. Against a monkey I think you can 3bet the turn but against a good player you absolutely should just call. The river c/r is actually pretty credible but it seems like you are bluffing with the wrong part of your range - and it's not clear to me that you should be bluffing much at all given how strong his range is and how weird your line looks.

In hand 2, I would not donk flop (I would just c/r and then bet/3bet pretty much any turn), and I definitely would rather just blast away on the turn than take your fancy line.
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Old 08-04-2017, 02:45 PM   #9
TheDarkKnight
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Re: Check Raising the River

I would guess the hands you're trying to get to fold (better sets) are basically never folding in Hand 1, so not really sure what your thinking is on the river there.

Hand 2 I feel like you got every street wrong except preflop. Very standard to check-raise the flop. As played, with two opponents in on the turn, not 3-betting is lighting money on fire. Also, it might be optimistic to check-raise river. Let's say your opponent has AK, KQ, KJ, etc... We know the flop is rainbow, but not really sure about the turn. It looks like a pretty dry board and the third player took two bets cold to the face, and you didn't fold either. It wouldn't be unreasonable to expect him to check back his top pair hands.
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Old 08-04-2017, 03:37 PM   #10
dead..money
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Re: Check Raising the River

I think they are both pretty bad
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Old 08-04-2017, 04:41 PM   #11
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Re: Check Raising the River

Hand 1 seems covered. I don't understand the donk in Hand 2, 3 bettor should be checking this flop like 0% of the time (yes there's a theoretical percentage to check back, but come on it's 832r in a 3 bet pot when we're looking at 88).

Just three bet turn immediately, don't risk a check or having to donk some rivers. Moreover, there's a good chance the cold caller has a king here, which means we have even less worry to be beat than normal.

On river, you might as well check raise, but I don't think I'd ever get to the river this way.
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Old 08-06-2017, 11:18 AM   #12
leavesofliberty
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Re: Check Raising the River

Quote:
Originally Posted by dead..money View Post
I think they are both pretty bad
Maybe because they are both bad.
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Old 08-06-2017, 01:45 PM   #13
OnTheRail15
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Re: Check Raising the River

Is this one of those posts where you post as hero but weren't hero? Both of these are badly butchered. Hand 1 I think villain's range that beats your hand is mostly TT and KJs and he's folding neither. Not only that, but you don't even have a good candidate to turn into a bluff even if I thought this was a good bluffing opportunity, which I don't.

I don't really know what to say about the second hand. You've butchered every postflop decision and if you're going to play your hand this poorly, you might want to consider folding preflop. For a hand like 88 to be profitable UTG you really need to play decently postflop. I'm not trying to be mean (although I can see it seems harsh to say), but you've flopped top set vs a strong range in a multiway pot. It should be hard to mess this up. Check raise the flop and continue to bet and raise. Not threebetting the turn is just one of the most mystifying things I've seen on these boards in a while and that's saying something.
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Old 08-06-2017, 02:34 PM   #14
leavesofliberty
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Re: Check Raising the River

If you don't 3bet this turn, you're basically never 3betting, and lags can use the free showdown raise with impunity. It is bad for your overall strategy unless you know the raiser has exactly king's up, or has exactly a draw and will ever so kind to bet a busted draw on the river for you. You ran very lucky that s/he bet the river there.
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Old 08-06-2017, 04:42 PM   #15
dadjoey
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Re: Check Raising the River

Thanks for all the feedback. These hands were played by me.

Hand 1: This is one of the few times villain has checked back the flop in spots where it goes raise/3bet. At game speed I planned on c/r'ing most rivers because he could be running an unlikely bluff or just played his two pair hands weird. On reflection I don't think he's ever folding better in this spot.

Spoiler:


Hand 2: Thanks for all the feedback. This is just FPS on my part. I butchered the flop because I thought the flop would get checked back. I was super confident villain would barrel the river so just made the call to c/r the river for tilt value. Not 3/betting this spot is pretty criminal and lighting money on fire.
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Old 08-06-2017, 04:51 PM   #16
OnTheRail15
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Re: Check Raising the River

FWIW, if you're going to bluff in hand one, your hand should include a Jack.
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Old 08-07-2017, 11:54 AM   #17
leavesofliberty
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Re: Check Raising the River

Hand #1 bluff is defensible, because it neutralizes some calling candidates to your river raises, and it's the top of the folding range, only I think it's too high. I think maybe AQ/AJ here, because you beat/tie aces up, and can get a set to fold. Of the two hand, I greatly prefer #1.

But, isn't merely betting as a bluff better?

If opponent is bluffing too much then the correct adjustment is to call.

Add: Perhaps a little lower. I think QJ, and lead-out with it rather than check-raise. It should be in the two pair range and contain a straight blocker as OTR suggests. I'm guessing it's better not to have an ace so it can bluff aces up.

Last edited by leavesofliberty; 08-07-2017 at 12:06 PM.
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Old 08-07-2017, 01:58 PM   #18
jdr0317
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Re: Check Raising the River

Really even just using QJs of no flush draw is going to be overbluffing the river in Hand 1, since your river value range is like what, AK and maybe KK/KQ? Do the latter two even call the turn raise at 100%? Actually, just check raising QJs at a high frequency is probably best; I think 88 is a cry call and hope to see something totally unexpected like a stone airball w/ 66.
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Old 08-07-2017, 04:35 PM   #19
leavesofliberty
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Re: Check Raising the River

I'm assuming it's better to check 100% on the river to guard against vbetting, so the bluff should be a check-raise. Agreed should have very few bluffs here.
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Old 08-08-2017, 02:07 PM   #20
PaulValente
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Re: Check Raising the River

Just 3bet turn in both hands, imo.
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Old 08-10-2017, 08:19 PM   #21
DeathDonkey
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Re: Check Raising the River

Hand 1 villain 3 bet hijack raise with J9s from cutoff and then checked back that flop? Imo he's not as good as you think
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Old 08-11-2017, 01:21 AM   #22
phunkphish
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Re: Check Raising the River

It's okay to have a check range any and everywhere.
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Old 08-11-2017, 01:22 AM   #23
OnTheRail15
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Re: Check Raising the River

Ok but it's not ok to check any hand on any board with any action. I mean really.


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Old 08-11-2017, 12:06 PM   #24
jdr0317
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Re: Check Raising the River

Even if we start w/ the assumption that a check range on AQ8 for a 3 bettor is fine, J9s absolutely should not be in it.
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Old 08-11-2017, 12:29 PM   #25
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Re: Check Raising the River

(Why are we talking about J9 in the first place? Was DD present and omniscently commenting?)

J9s *no BDFD* is very near the bottom of our range. Only worse combos would possibly be T9s, ~K9s, 76s, K7s... if you have all those.

With the bottom of my range, my default is to put it in my [check, check, desperation river bluff] branch. Three barreling / Double-barreling is reserved for hands higher up in my distribution.
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