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20/40 Limit, Checkup on preflop spots

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07-31-2017 , 09:34 AM

PhatPots

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 3,932

Just a checkup on some preflop spots. The game is 1/3 good players, 1/3 competent players, 1/3 fish (maybe more fish than competent players).

I use to play more limit holdem but it has been a while. This game only comes to the city for 1 month in the summer. So time for my annual checkup.

There are a few spots that I was unsure about and wanted to check.

Hand 1:
MP raises, all fold, Hero has A9o in the BB, hero?

Hand 2:
CO Raises, Hero has JTs in OTB, hero?

Hand 3:
UTG raises, Hero is in MP with 77, hero?

Quote

07-31-2017 , 09:39 AM

6MaxLHE

veteran

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 2,007

Hand 1 - call.

Hand 2 - 3bet.

Hand 3 - fold.

Quote

07-31-2017 , 12:14 PM

SetofJacks

veteran

Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,378

Call, 3-bet, 3-bet IMO
BUT a lot of players in my game are LAG and will open 44+, 89s, etc. UTG. Against a tighter range you could definitely fold 77. And in a LP cold-cally game you could coldcall 77.

Quote

07-31-2017 , 04:32 PM

DonkeyOnTilt

adept

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,002

I agree with setofjacks. Call, 3bet and 3bet against loose openers though folding is certainly something you'd never lose sleep over.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Quote

07-31-2017 , 07:25 PM

jdr0317

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 8,231

77 must be folded vs an UTG open w/out a read (77 sometimes won't even feature in my UTG range). Not sure why we'd advocate 3 betting an UTG raiser readless here.

Quote

07-31-2017 , 07:54 PM

ninefingershuffle

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 3,542

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdr0317

77 must be folded vs an UTG open w/out a read (77 sometimes won't even feature in my UTG range). Not sure why we'd advocate 3 betting an UTG raiser readless here.

Quote

08-01-2017 , 06:26 AM

steveistheman84

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,438

hand 3's not even close. fold. other hands are standard 3bets.

Quote

08-01-2017 , 07:46 AM

Wolfram

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 15,066

Why 3bet hand 3? It's HU. You're not squeezing anybody out of the hand. You you really think you have a value 3-bet here?

Quote

08-01-2017 , 09:55 AM

jdr0317

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 8,231

Quote:

Originally Posted by steveistheman84

hand 3's not even close. fold. other hands are standard 3bets.

When did A9o become a standard 3 bet against an MP open?

Quote

08-01-2017 , 11:12 AM

#10

SetofJacks

veteran

Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,378

If 77 is not even close then 88 and 99 are also folds.

Quote

08-01-2017 , 12:50 PM

#11

jdr0317

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 8,231

Quote:

Originally Posted by SetofJacks

If 77 is not even close then 88 and 99 are also folds.

That's a ridiculous comment. 99 is going to perform better than 77 against an UTG range, lumping them together as "medium pocket pairs" is disingenuous.

77:

Code:

PokerCruncher-Advanced-iPhone V.8.2.1

(Equity,  Win,  Tie)
Player 1:  55.3%  54.8%  1.02%  {77+, A8s+, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KJo+}
Player 2:  44.7%  44.2%  1.02%  [7c7h]

Board:  [? ? ? ? ?]
Deal To:  River
Dead Cards:  {}

Monte Carlo Simulation: 500000 trials

88:

Code:

PokerCruncher-Advanced-iPhone V.8.2.1

(Equity,  Win,  Tie)
Player 1:  52.8%  52.3%  1.03%  {77+, A8s+, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KJo+}
Player 2:  47.2%  46.7%  1.03%  [8h8c]

Board:  [? ? ? ? ?]
Deal To:  River
Dead Cards:  {}

Monte Carlo Simulation: 500000 trials

99:

Code:

PokerCruncher-Advanced-iPhone V.8.2.1

(Equity,  Win,  Tie)
Player 1:  49.6%  49.1%  1.04%  {77+, A8s+, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KJo+}
Player 2:  50.4%  49.9%  1.04%  [9h9c]

Board:  [? ? ? ? ?]
Deal To:  River
Dead Cards:  {}

Monte Carlo Simulation: 500000 trials

Even in this wide-ish example, 77 dominates nothing from the opener's range. 99, OTOH, dominates A8s, K9s, 88, 77. Even 88 is a defensible 3 bet in this scenario. But 77 is too much. Not really sure when I said it wasn't close, too, but the numbers clearly tell me that it's not good enough. And as to why 3 bet 88 but not 77, well, the line has to be drawn somewhere, or else we go for the full logical extreme and progress our statements from "if 88, then why not 77?" to "if 42o, then why not 32o?"

Quote

08-01-2017 , 01:05 PM

#12

SetofJacks

veteran

Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,378

You didn't say it's not even close, steveistheman did.
Agree the line has to be drawn somewhere and 88 or even 99 seems like a good place to start against an unknown.

UTG ranges are a lot wider in my game though.
A2s+, K9s, 44+, QJo, any two suited broadways, 78s+ or sometimes even lower.

Quote

08-01-2017 , 01:43 PM

#13

steveistheman84

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,438

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdr0317

When did A9o become a standard 3 bet against an MP open?

sorry, thought it was bvb

Quote

08-01-2017 , 02:01 PM

#14

jdr0317

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 8,231

Quote:

Originally Posted by steveistheman84

sorry, thought it was bvb

Fair enough

Quote

08-01-2017 , 02:03 PM

#15

jdr0317

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 8,231

Quote:

Originally Posted by SetofJacks

If this is the case then obviously we 3 bet 77 from MP. But really, you don't want to be sticking 3 bets in against an UTG raiser blind, because those ranges are atypical to games I normally play.

Quote

08-01-2017 , 03:38 PM

#16

KL03

old hand

Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 1,407

Quote:

Originally Posted by SetofJacks

If 77 is not even close then 88 and 99 are also folds.

Nothing is ever close here. It's either terrible or expert.

Quote

08-01-2017 , 04:43 PM

#17

dead..money

banned

Join Date: May 2017 Posts: 176

So Much hate for 77. Yes it's a easy fold vs solid players or even a bad nitty reg but there are lots of players where I am very excited to 3 bet and it's not close.

You just have to know when to do each and you won't figure that out on a forum where people are not privy to your opponents.

Quote

08-01-2017 , 04:50 PM

#18

dead..money

banned

Join Date: May 2017 Posts: 176

Do you guys think people look down at A5s, 45s, 67s 22,66 etc and think these aren't very good hands to play UTG im going to wait for 99+ and AQ+

If somebody I have never seen before opened Utg I would probably 3 bet 77 fwiw. It's way more likely they show up with At least 1 undercard than an expert UTG range

Quote

08-01-2017 , 04:54 PM

#19

chillrob

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 20,855

^ Many people don't fold them, but I don't think many raise those hands UTG either.

Quote

08-01-2017 , 05:10 PM

#20

jdr0317

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 8,231

Quote:

Originally Posted by dead..money

So Much hate for 77. Yes it's a easy fold vs solid players or even a bad nitty reg but there are lots of players where I am very excited to 3 bet and it's not close.

I don't disagree. I'd just rather find out who these people are first, versus expanding my "3 bet versus competent opponent" range as a default.

Quote

08-01-2017 , 05:34 PM

#21

Eric

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 13,853

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdr0317

That's a ridiculous comment. 99 is going to perform better than 77 against an UTG range, lumping them together as "medium pocket pairs" is disingenuous.

77:

Code:

PokerCruncher-Advanced-iPhone V.8.2.1

(Equity,  Win,  Tie)
Player 1:  55.3%  54.8%  1.02%  {77+, A8s+, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KJo+}
Player 2:  44.7%  44.2%  1.02%  [7c7h]

Board:  [? ? ? ? ?]
Deal To:  River
Dead Cards:  {}

Monte Carlo Simulation: 500000 trials

88:

Code:

PokerCruncher-Advanced-iPhone V.8.2.1

(Equity,  Win,  Tie)
Player 1:  52.8%  52.3%  1.03%  {77+, A8s+, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KJo+}
Player 2:  47.2%  46.7%  1.03%  [8h8c]

Board:  [? ? ? ? ?]
Deal To:  River
Dead Cards:  {}

Monte Carlo Simulation: 500000 trials

99:

Code:

PokerCruncher-Advanced-iPhone V.8.2.1

(Equity,  Win,  Tie)
Player 1:  49.6%  49.1%  1.04%  {77+, A8s+, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KJo+}
Player 2:  50.4%  49.9%  1.04%  [9h9c]

Board:  [? ? ? ? ?]
Deal To:  River
Dead Cards:  {}

Monte Carlo Simulation: 500000 trials

Even in this wide-ish example, 77 dominates nothing from the opener's range. 99, OTOH, dominates A8s, K9s, 88, 77.

I'm curious as to how 77 and 99 compare if one removes 88 and 77 (and 99, better yet) from UTG's open range. Of course leaving them in will make 99 look significantly better.

And why A8s instead of A9s, etc? Your minimums are built to favour 99. Of course 99 is better, but is it so much better?

Quote

08-01-2017 , 08:50 PM

#22

jdr0317

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 8,231

Quote:

Originally Posted by e_holle

If anything, this range is too wide (top 13% on Poker Cruncher). If you condense to the top 10%, 77 has 42% and is a clear fold, while 99 has 47% and is a marginal 3 bet.

Quote

08-02-2017 , 01:20 AM

#23

dadjoey

journeyman

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 332

If the blinds are bad and likely to cold call a raise but fold to a 3-bet, hand 2 probably makes more money just cold calling.

Hand 3 - 99s is a 3bet or fold. 77s is a fold.

Quote

08-02-2017 , 03:23 AM

#24

SetofJacks

veteran

Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,378

Quote:

Originally Posted by dadjoey

If the blinds are bad and likely to cold call a raise but fold to a 3-bet, hand 2 probably makes more money just cold calling.

Hand 3 - 99s is a 3bet or fold. 77s is a fold.

99 is only a fold against super passive players. Against all others it's a 3-bet.

I hardly think having a "call one more but not two more" range the blinds makes them bad players. For example, A9o should be in that range.

And generally we'd rather have their dead money in the pot rather than extra players.

Quote

08-02-2017 , 09:20 AM

#25

leavesofliberty

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 6,296

Quote:

Originally Posted by dead..money

The character of the game of hold'em has changed over the years. More people fold these in early now than ever. I use to assume their ranges to be this wide, but no longer.

Quote

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