20-40. A pretty loose aggressive player raises from 5off the button. I'm 2off and 3-bet with QsQd.

All else fold and 5off calls.

Flop comes KcTs5h. I bet and he calls.

Turn comes Tc. Should I check or bet?

Few worse hands call, I hate being check raised, and villain will check raise often if he's aggressive. Time for a value check.

I like a check with a plan to call any river card except a queen which I will raise. I think that on such a draw heavy board we will be bluff raised a lot by a lag and also there will be a lot of missed draws on the river. If we bet, we are bet/calling down, I presume, which seems like it’s too much of an overplay. The plan is to see showdown for one bet, so I will probably bet/call the river if checked to again.


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What draws are out there? QJ is very low # of combos given hero has QQ. AJ? Ac5c is one combo and dubious for such an early open even from a lag.

Against a LAG player I’d check the turn and probably call all rivers. Villain will probably bet all rivers if you check the turn so the bet you miss on the turn you’ll probably get back on the river. Life becomes miserable if you’re check raised on the turn.

I did check the turn and the river came Ac. 5off bet so now what should I do?

I lose to any A, any K, QJ, any T or any flush.

I'm getting 5.5/1 to call so am I winning against 18% of his combos? And some of those he should be happy to see a showdown and won't bet because they are beaten by too many other hands.

How loose is his opening range from that position?


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Oof that was the worst card possible to come on the river. Checkraisedraw has it, come up with what you think his opening range is preflop and stove it. My guess is we're toast unless it's insanely wide. I think I fold this but if I know he's opening wide and he will fire at any weaknesses I'll call.

I’m just wondering if he’ll turn a small pair into a bluff. If he will, and he opens enough of then, that might be enough combos to make the call profitable.


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Basically fold to an everyday LAG, call a really spewy LAG/maniac.

Late to the party and trying not to be results oriented but if we're checking the turn just snap call the river. Don't even think about folding. Just close your eyes and call. The whole point is to induce bluffs and he has plenty of hands from which to do so.

But I think I prefer betting the turn with a hand this strong and the paired turn card. We have plenty of worse pocket pairs that can check the turn and bluffcatch or bet-fold comfortably. If he raises, call and proceed to showdown on most rivers.

On this particular river, i'm starting to believe but there's still valuable information to be had from a showdown. If he shows up with a garden variety slowplay then I'm going to look for spots to punish his weakened flop kr range, which should come up a lot cuz he's a lag. If he turns something he shouldn't into a bluff then I might shift my turn bet/check line up a few notches (but maybe not as strong as QQ just yet).

These replies are very helpful. There is a consensus of checking the turn but some bet/fold comments that are viable.

The check turn/call river folks rightfully ask for his range and whether he's a LAG or a SLAG. and wonder if he'll call flop with small pairs.

He's out of position so even if he has 99, 88, 77, and 66 and calls the flop, he has to hope we have AQ, AJ, QJ and not only miss our gut shot but our pair outs too.

All that and then potentially face a bet on the river.

As the hand played out going to the river, is he really better off with his bluff catcher middle pairs to fire the river hoping to get the rare QQ or JJ to fold or check and beat all my missed AQ, AJ, QJ hands which I'm going to check behind on the river anyway.

So to me it seems like a value bet which I can't beat. Even if he has a hand as K9s which is basically at the lowest end of his value range I doubt he would bet it, but if he does, he's still beating us.

My intention was absolutely to check turn and call river if a brick or even semi-brick fell, but the Ac was such a bullseye I felt it was right to fold.

True, there is value in looking your opponent up enough that you should be calling down with slightly less than correct pot odds for of course the times you win and to protect your table image.

Doesn’t QQ work better as a check that lower pairs due to opponents having more outs against lower pairs?

I just think if we check the turn, we have to call any river. Even the worst river.


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yes, but it also has better ability to be called by worse. Aces have no overcard vulnerability yet we arent thinking about checking those back, are we?

Mostly, I'm going on the assumption that if he had value, he'd be very likely to take it on the flop because calling is pretty scary itself, as evidenced by the desire to check back QQ shown in this thread. He didn't and now has fewer tens and more club draws. Give him some rope.

To my eye this is a clear bet turn and call down scenario. I think many of our holdings can now check for a free card. Hands like AQ, AJ or some lower pairs like 77 can all check here. QQ is too high up in our range to be checking and we need to charge hands like AQ, AJ, 77, A9c, etc. on the turn.

Our opponent did not check raise the flop, making K's less likely. A Ten would be a logical holding for him but that is now less likely that there are two on board.

If you bet and he raises just call down, especially if he's loose and aggressive. You may induce a bluff raise from some draws here. Don't be afraid, they are only plastic chips

op probably using clay, or clay composite. same advice? or would you be more careful with clay.


id bet turn fwiw.

Hahaha

Makes me wonder where the standard bet fold/bet call threshold is (I think it’s really close to KQ, which is just a little bit better than QQ considering my range as a whole). Now how do we exploit loose aggressive postflop players that carry an already loose preflop range? We eliminate bet fold and bet call instead.

I would definitely bet call QQ in this scenario. The question to me is how low can we go with the pairs? Need to know how passive he is on the river. I’ll guess that for now we should draw the line around 77-99(yes I forgot which low card was on the flop).

River call is a question of do we have a pure bluffcatcher or do we beat value hands? If the former it’s a decision of range location; if the latter it isn’t really a decision.

River A comes and you might have induced a bluff with a strong hand (yes this implies that the starting ranges are wide, resulting in many seemingly loose flop peels). As stated in theory of poker you must call the river heads up vs aggressive players when there’s opportunity (J9s, Q9s) for your opponent to bluff after you check the turn.

Thinking about it, I think that betting the turn might be better. AK would check raise the flop and there are too many gut shots that might not even continue here on the turn that you might want to protect your equity here. Even a loose aggressive player would probably be wary of check-raising a tag’s two barrel on this turn card. Very few hands that bet-fold here.

Are you even calling a bet on this particular river? The pot is bigger but the chances of you winning are low.


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This is something I've been thinking about and interested to get everyone's thoughts on it. From a purely GTO perspective, does bet fold with any sort of value hand really make sense? Clearly that's correct with our bluffs, but why would we ever bet a hand for value just to fold it? Isn't it just better to check and carry our value forward to the next street if our plan is to fold to a raise?

From an exploitative perspective I totally get it.

Bet the turn.


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whoah! I find this a rare time I disagree with you.

I think almost always check QQ and AQ, mostly check JJ and AJ, check A9, bet half of Q9 and J9, usually bet QJ and bet everything else almost always.

As played fold the river. You have 2 bets in the pot and beat J9 and smaller pairs turned into a bluff. His line would look very normal if he had Tx, Ax, QJ and it is not hard to hit this board. We check the turn looking for him to bluff a blank river or minimize our loss but now the Ace completes more hands he may stab with and we are now ahead? I don't like it and furthermore if you fold and are wrong you will likely see more of the river stabs in the future when you take the same line and the worst card in the deck doesn't show up.

nobody said to bet fold the turn. likely bc that is idiotic.

just read the rest of your post. holy crap you folded the river? thats really bad too.