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12-22-2018 , 02:10 PM
The BB seems to be a somewhat laggy Asian guy. He seems to play decently post flop. I've noticed he is good at getting thin value. I haven't seen him bluff yet but I've only been at the table 30 minutes. This is our first BVB situation.

This may be standard but I feel sloppy in BVB situations.

I open A2o in SB, BB calls.

Qd8s2h...Is this a bet and probable call down? When against a somewhat unknown opponent do you tend to get to showdown more even if the board gets bad? Is this a spot to donk/check?

Lets say we bet and he raises and we call.....Q8244....Call down?
Q8294....?
Q824T....?
Q62.....?

Last edited by mongidig; 12-22-2018 at 02:16 PM.
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12-22-2018 , 02:59 PM
I'd bet and calldown unless either (a) I get counterfeited or (b) there's a four flush or a four straight.

I'd check the turn unimproved no matter what falls when he calls instead of raising, and I would showdown when counterfeited vs turn and river bets, or vs turn check and river bet. However, I'm really hoping that the turn checks through and a blank falls, where I would usually value bet(depending on the actual turn and river cards.
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12-22-2018 , 04:39 PM
This is a hand I like to donk x/c down.

What stake is this? If it’s 20/40 and it’s raked, why are you not chopping?
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12-22-2018 , 05:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodeo
This is a hand I like to donk x/c down.

What stake is this? If it’s 20/40 and it’s raked, why are you not chopping?
20/40 time game.
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12-22-2018 , 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by mongidig
20/40 time game.


Seems reasonable. Carry on.
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12-23-2018 , 11:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodeo
This is a hand I like to donk x/c down.

What stake is this? If it’s 20/40 and it’s raked, why are you not chopping?
I like Bob's plan but I think I like the donk x/c down a bit better. People go crazy with the bluffs when you give them rope which is huge in a small pot. I think any hand that I am getting value from with a bet is going to bet for me if I check.
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12-23-2018 , 12:16 PM
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I think any hand that I am getting value from with a bet is going to bet for me if I check.
I think this is a dubious statement. Maybe you could compare (bb calling + raising ranges vs a bet) and (bb betting range) to see the fraction of the big blind's range that has 20% to 50% equity vs your range(I think it's going to be a pretty big chunk that should check back) because there are many no pair no draw hands with ok equity here that should call the flop, and which hands are going to bet the flop vs a check(either correctly or incorrectly).
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12-23-2018 , 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob148
I think this is a dubious statement. Maybe you could compare (bb calling + raising ranges vs a bet) and (bb betting range) to see the fraction of the big blind's range that has 20% to 50% equity vs your range(I think it's going to be a pretty big chunk that should check back) because there are many no pair no draw hands with ok equity here that should call the flop, and which hands are going to bet the flop vs a check(either correctly or incorrectly).
I should probably change my statement to "Quite often in my experience they will bet the hands I'd like to get value from". I just want to get to showdown as cheaply as possible those times I'm beat but call down. If I can induce some bluffs that's even better.
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12-23-2018 , 03:22 PM
There may be better low flop textures to donk check with the A2 here. The presence of the Q on this relatively dry board gives us a range advantage vs. the BB, who should be calling our raise with all but a handful of really bad hands. We can incorporate more donk checks into our range the lower and wetter the flop texture is. Flops with 3 little cards or monotone boards are prime candidates, as these favor the BB's wider range (more low cards and suited hands) slightly vs. the SB.

On the board textures provided I think bet flop and call down is the optimal line to take. If you have some other intel or read which would you allow you to take an exploitative line against an opponent that is of course preferable. I play with a number of live opponents who bluff well below optimal amounts, so giving up on a river with 4th or 5th pair is perfectly reasonable - just be careful they don't start exploiting you!

Last edited by JLot; 12-23-2018 at 03:28 PM.
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12-25-2018 , 02:42 AM
Grunching: Check, and if he checks I'd open fold the turn. Q 8 2 4 4 is a river fold. Q 8 2 9 4 is an easy call down if he bets the nine. Q 8 2 4 T is a bet on the turn and a river fold. Q 6 2 is a flop fold.

My rationale is somewhat confirmably he has a king if he gets anywhere near the river?
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12-25-2018 , 11:35 AM
I call down the Q8244. I fold the Q829 on turn because the 9 hits all the gutterballs that are the most likely bluffs on the flop. For the same reason, I could probably find a river fold vs. Q824T.
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12-27-2018 , 08:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLot
There may be better low flop textures to donk check with the A2 here. The presence of the Q on this relatively dry board gives us a range advantage vs. the BB, who should be calling our raise with all but a handful of really bad hands. We can incorporate more donk checks into our range the lower and wetter the flop texture is. Flops with 3 little cards or monotone boards are prime candidates, as these favor the BB's wider range (more low cards and suited hands) slightly vs. the SB.

On the board textures provided I think bet flop and call down is the optimal line to take. If you have some other intel or read which would you allow you to take an exploitative line against an opponent that is of course preferable. I play with a number of live opponents who bluff well below optimal amounts, so giving up on a river with 4th or 5th pair is perfectly reasonable - just be careful they don't start exploiting you!
This makes a lot of sense. Thank you!

The games that I play in are pretty loose so there aren't many opportunities to play BVB. Does this change the way you might approach the hand? For example, you mentioned there are better range on range situations to donk/check. With marginal hands like this and against an opponent I'm not real familiar with I think getting to showdown for as cheap as possible makes sense. It's not like I'm giving up a ton of value by checking and in some cases if I can induce bluffs that's a huge win in a tiny pot.
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12-27-2018 , 02:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig
The games that I play in are pretty loose so there aren't many opportunities to play BVB. Does this change the way you might approach the hand? For example, you mentioned there are better range on range situations to donk/check. With marginal hands like this and against an opponent I'm not real familiar with I think getting to showdown for as cheap as possible makes sense. It's not like I'm giving up a ton of value by checking and in some cases if I can induce bluffs that's a huge win in a tiny pot.
I'll defer to your knowledge of the games you play in, however I'd think it would be more player dependent than game dependent. My live poker experience is that players who do not have much experience in BvB situations tend to play too tightly in the blinds. This would favor more aggression and expanding the bet / fold part of your range as an exploit.

In general, my strategy for playing an opponent that I don't have experience against or a read on is to play my best approximation of GTO poker. Ideally, I then try to exploit the reads I have by expanding certain parts of my range. Of course my approximation of GTO has gaping wide holes in it and my execution is for **** sometimes, but I've found it to be a logical approach.
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12-28-2018 , 11:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig
The BB seems to be a somewhat laggy Asian guy. He seems to play decently post flop. I've noticed he is good at getting thin value. I haven't seen him bluff yet but I've only been at the table 30 minutes. This is our first BVB situation.

This may be standard but I feel sloppy in BVB situations.

I open A2o in SB, BB calls.

Qd8s2h...Is this a bet and probable call down? When against a somewhat unknown opponent do you tend to get to showdown more even if the board gets bad? Is this a spot to donk/check?

Lets say we bet and he raises and we call.....Q8244....Call down?
Q8294....?
Q824T....?
Q62.....?
I'd bet and call down all run outs after villain in BB raises on flop.

Would not donk check flop because I play bad and that's not an option for me on this board BvB.

Last edited by maka2184; 12-29-2018 at 12:02 AM.
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