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Old 05-12-2018, 01:49 PM   #1
LifeRebooted
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A bluff

20/40. I am in the BB with A5. 4 players limp and I check.

Flop: JT4 (~ 5SB). I check, Villain who limped UTG+1 bets. In my experience, Villain plays essentially like a typical TAG, except he often limps with all sorts of suited junk in all positions. Maybe no something so bad as 82, but definitely hands like 96 or Q6. Villain seems to be most comfortable as the aggressor post-flop--and he typically is--and I do not have a sense of really how showdown bound he is with medium-strength hands.

So Villain bets, one or two of the other limpers call, and I call.

Turn JT4K (~4.5BB). I check, Villain bets, other players fold, I raise, and Villain calls.

River: JT4K5 (~6.5BB). I bet.
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Old 05-12-2018, 02:15 PM   #2
asmitty
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Re: A bluff

You don't get to win every hand.
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Old 05-12-2018, 03:06 PM   #3
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Re: A bluff

He bet the flop into a lot of players and then bet the turn into three players? I think he should have a pretty strong hand here and isn't likely to bet fold much, if at all; a multiway betting range's ability to handle additional action should be innate. I would want to have seen him bet fold in a similar spot even before trying this play with a much stronger draw than this, like A7ss, or Q8ss.

I think it's kind of close between call and fold on the turn.
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Old 05-12-2018, 05:42 PM   #4
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Re: A bluff

I'd fold flop

As played, I would fold turn.
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Old 05-12-2018, 10:05 PM   #5
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Re: A bluff

Huh?
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Old 05-13-2018, 01:02 AM   #6
LifeRebooted
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Re: A bluff

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Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle View Post
Huh?
Despite results, I immediately suspected this was bad which is why I posted to confirm. At the time my thinking was that Villain's range is fairly decapitated, he likely perceives my k/r as very strong, and I have outs plus a flush draw blocker (although that cuts both ways, I think).
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Old 05-13-2018, 01:48 AM   #7
AlanBostick
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Re: A bluff

I don't understand hero's flop call.
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Old 05-13-2018, 02:47 AM   #8
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Re: A bluff

Maybe he does get to win every hand.
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Old 05-13-2018, 03:19 AM   #9
DonkeyOnTilt
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Re: A bluff

I really dislike this play. Fold flop, fold turn. There are so much better board textures to do this on. You're basically only repping a delayed flopped monster because the king is supposed to be his card.
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Old 05-13-2018, 03:41 PM   #10
maka2184
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Re: A bluff

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Originally Posted by DonkeyOnTilt View Post
I really dislike this play. Fold flop, fold turn. There are so much better board textures to do this on. You're basically only repping a delayed flopped monster because the king is supposed to be his card.
+1

LifeRebooted, if player pool is still similar player pool we used to play in around Horseshoe Hammond 20/40 half kill, the villains generally will not be able to fold frequently enough to run this line

I haven't played in awhile and my friend did say lineup did change drastically so disregard if not applicable anymore.

He said everyone is still mediocre at best though with few exceptions.
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Old 05-15-2018, 05:11 AM   #11
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Re: A bluff

flop is a must call with Nut BDFD getting that odds especially since you closing the action. BDSD+A dirty out are just extra bonus.
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Old 05-15-2018, 05:53 AM   #12
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Re: A bluff

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Originally Posted by DonJuan View Post
flop is a must call with Nut BDFD getting that odds especially since you closing the action. BDSD+A dirty out are just extra bonus.
How are you calculating that he has odds to call just for the backdoor flush draw? It's a pretty small pot, he's only getting 7 or 8 to one and the odds of hitting the BDFD are more than twice that.
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Old 05-15-2018, 03:48 PM   #13
dead.money
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Re: A bluff

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Originally Posted by LifeRebooted View Post
20/40. I am in the BB with A5. 4 players limp and I check.

Flop: JT4 (~ 5SB). I check, Villain who limped UTG+1 bets. In my experience, Villain plays essentially like a typical TAG, except he often limps with all sorts of suited junk in all positions. Maybe no something so bad as 82, but definitely hands like 96 or Q6. Villain seems to be most comfortable as the aggressor post-flop--and he typically is--and I do not have a sense of really how showdown bound he is with medium-strength hands.

So Villain bets, one or two of the other limpers call, and I call.

Turn JT4K (~4.5BB). I check, Villain bets, other players fold, I raise, and Villain calls.

River: JT4K5 (~6.5BB). I bet.


According to description of Villain he most likely has a flush draw.maybe top pair with flush draw..something like KJs,K9s,J9s etc.. I hate the turn raise he NEVER folds here. Prefer to check river. Let villian either bluff river after missing flush or go for a thin value bet with his J9 and THEN we raise.
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Old 05-15-2018, 05:12 PM   #14
maka2184
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Re: A bluff

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Originally Posted by DonJuan View Post
flop is a must call with Nut BDFD getting that odds especially since you closing the action. BDSD+A dirty out are just extra bonus.
Thanks for this.

I figured with RIO based on it being 4 ways on flop, it was better to fold flop but makes sense to at least call flop closing action in BB as HERO/OP taking into account one limper who folded flop.

Any merit to c/r flop in these situations in lieu of calling to bet down based on nut BDFD?

I typically dont unless there are history vs villains

OR

if pot was HUHU pot already. Even if pot was now HUHU, I typically either chk/call flop or C/R flop even with nut BDFD since there are run outs we can call down with dirty outs or bluff bet on certain run outs.
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Old 05-15-2018, 05:49 PM   #15
Bob148
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Re: A bluff

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Originally Posted by maka2184 View Post
Any merit to c/r flop in these situations in lieu of calling to bet down based on nut BDFD?
I used to do this vs very overaggressive players that would make dumb multiway bluffs, but I had a hard time winning pots even vs such players. You either get called by the in between players, in which case you got about 20% equity 3 or 4 ways, or you get yourself isolated vs a strong range. None of those are good spots.

If we call instead then for 1/2 the price of a check raise we get to see another card immediately. Since our equity is tied up in straight and flushdraws, we want to keep the pot more multiway on the turn, which is the street that is going to either give us a strong draw, a weak draw, or no pair no draw; in all 3 of those situations we benefit from more people being in the pot. With a strong draw on the turn the check call is going to be quite profitable as we will hit the flush or tagalong straight draw often enough to make it a profitable investment with our ~20% equity draws on the turn which will be getting at least 4.5:1. This turn action does however reduce the profitability of the draws, even the strong draws; the turn check through is best case scenario, or most profitable scenario after calling this flop.

These turn situations are some of the more significant ev sources with As5x. Other situations include running 5 5 after a turn check through, or a backdoor wheel that comes in after a turn check through, could even win with a blank turn check through and a river Ace.

Note that if you're never getting that kind of turn action, then As5x is probably a flop fold; the lack of free cards is really bad for backdoor draws.
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Old 05-15-2018, 06:06 PM   #16
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Re: A bluff

Play no limit.
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Old 05-16-2018, 12:05 AM   #17
DonJuan
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Re: A bluff

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Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
How are you calculating that he has odds to call just for the backdoor flush draw? It's a pretty small pot, he's only getting 7 or 8 to one and the odds of hitting the BDFD are more than twice that.
It quite hard to truly solve for this since mw still impossible with solvers. However from playing with bunch of head up/3 way situation there seem to be a huge emphasis on A high BDFD peeling a lot. This pot is big compare to the amount you are calling of one SB and you are closing the action. We are looking at the long run of small time where we hit flush on river and scoop. We don't have to call much on turn if don't get FD or unless an A comes on turn and other are passive. Also this might be obvious but need to be reinforce again that there a huge difference between A high BDFD and the K high BDFD don't want people to start just peeling K/Q BDFD

Also I usually don't comment on what I agree with since that just reinforce what already been said. And in some instance it makes other uncomfortable with their opinions.
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Old 05-16-2018, 01:07 PM   #18
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Re: A bluff

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Originally Posted by DonJuan View Post
It quite hard to truly solve for this since mw still impossible with solvers. However from playing with bunch of head up/3 way situation there seem to be a huge emphasis on A high BDFD peeling a lot. This pot is big compare to the amount you are calling of one SB and you are closing the action. We are looking at the long run of small time where we hit flush on river and scoop. We don't have to call much on turn if don't get FD or unless an A comes on turn and other are passive. Also this might be obvious but need to be reinforce again that there a huge difference between A high BDFD and the K high BDFD don't want people to start just peeling K/Q BDFD

Also I usually don't comment on what I agree with since that just reinforce what already been said. And in some instance it makes other uncomfortable with their opinions.
So basically your ace highs are sometimes good / you may have some fold equity, so you should build your peeling range starting with the ace highs that have the highest equity, i.e., those that are accompanied by backdoor draws?
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Old 05-16-2018, 01:54 PM   #19
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Re: A bluff

It's not that hard to figure out the odds of hitting a backdoor flush, and you have no fold equity when calling.
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