Bad Turn - Medium Stakes Poker Forum - Medium Stakes Limit Holdem

Two Plus Two Forums Poker Strategy Other Poker Games Mid-High Stakes Limit

Bad Turn

Post Reply Subscribe

...

Page 1 of 2

1 2

Page 1 of 2

1 2

03-21-2010 , 04:49 PM

Grumpy

banned

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 237

Live 20 Borgata

Hero raises A

UTG +1, everyone folds to spewy CO who cold calls, TAG button 3bets, both blinds fold, hero calls.

Flop: A

Hero bets, CO calls, button raises, hero 3 bets, CO calls, button caps, all call.

Turn: K

Hero checks?, CO checks, button bets, hero calls, CO calls.

River: 2

I retartedly decide to donk the river, CO thinks for a while and mucks KQ obv, button raises, I muck AJ face up.

Did I really make that big a mistake by b/f? Is this always a c/c?

Last edited by Grumpy; 03-21-2010 at 04:56 PM.

Quote

03-21-2010 , 04:52 PM

9.5fingershuffle

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 5,350

I'm in pain.

Quote

03-21-2010 , 04:57 PM

OnTheRail15

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 4,339

You misplayed every postflop street.

Quote

03-21-2010 , 05:03 PM

Grumpy

banned

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 237

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheRail15

You misplayed every postflop street.

I think leading the flop actually has merits b/c CO is not going n e where. I know button is pretty much going to raise his entire range on the flop in this spot, which will in turn lead me to 3bet the flop and protect my hand against any FD or gutshot SD.

But yes I think the turn should be bet regardless, and the river bet was pretty horrible.

Quote

03-21-2010 , 05:45 PM

bakku

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 4,925

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grumpy

if button is raising his entire range on this flop he's a ****** not a tag. i'm actually ok with the turn check on that card, but the rest of the hand is bad

lol at mucking face up

Quote

03-21-2010 , 06:38 PM

Grumpy

banned

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 237

Quote:

Originally Posted by bakku

if button is raising his entire range on this flop he's a ****** not a tag. i'm actually ok with the turn check on that card, but the rest of the hand is bad

lol at mucking face up

My intent was to try to build a pot with a bad CO player who would pay 3bets on the flop. In fact the hand would have worked out great if it werent for the ugly.

And FWIW Button flashed AK after the hand. Even if he didn't there is pretty much no way I am ever good here in a live 20/40 game. Only thinking online players would ever try to value/bluff raise this river with AQ.

Quote

03-21-2010 , 07:00 PM

ImAllInNow

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,885

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grumpy

...which will in turn lead me to 3bet the flop and get value out of my hand against any FD or gutshot SD.

fyp

Quote

03-21-2010 , 08:24 PM

gaming_mouse

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 13,786

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheRail15

You misplayed every postflop street.

I am pretty confused by this. My standard would be to c/r this flop but I think OP's line is actually pretty creative and interesting. I think the result he got happens fairly often and gets him a bunch of extra bets.

On the turn, what do you want to do? b/f? I assume you agree we are behind here like almost always, but the pot is huge....

The river bet is clearly atrocious.

Quote

03-21-2010 , 08:42 PM

OnTheRail15

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 4,339

Quote:

Originally Posted by gaming_mouse

Because c/r is clearly the best play on the flop. Not close. The assumption that button almost always raises or that CO is continuing with his entire range here is just wrong. I'd also point out that given the read, CO's calling range on the flop and his calling range when you face him with two cold is pretty close to the same.

I'm curious why you think this happens fairly often given that most of button's range, given our hand and the board, is actually underpairs or broadway gutshots in this spot. I'd say the most common action would be bet/fold/call.

Quote

03-21-2010 , 09:35 PM

#10

The DaveR

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 19,161

Quote:

Originally Posted by gaming_mouse

Aside from the fact that we're using ex post observation to determine that we're stringing along the CO, I'm guessing that a flop bet is about 3x more likely than a flop raise from the button.

Quote

03-21-2010 , 09:38 PM

#11

gaming_mouse

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 13,786

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheRail15

I don't think he'll almost always raise, but AK/AQ will raise, which is a nice chunk of his range. Also I think KK/QQ might find a fold easier vs a flop c/r line than versus a donk line. So I do think it's closer than you are saying.

What's your turn reasoning?

Quote

03-21-2010 , 09:41 PM

#12

bakku

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 4,925

Quote:

Originally Posted by gaming_mouse

true, AK/AQ will raise the flop, but they'll also 3bet or raise the turn. also, when you b/3b the flop you're showing so much strength that people just shutdown and go into calldown mode

Quote

03-21-2010 , 09:41 PM

#13

asymptote

centurion

Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 101

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grumpy

My intent was to try to build a pot with a bad CO player who would pay 3bets on the flop. In fact the hand would have worked out great if it werent for the ugly.

So, the intent was to build a pot so that the guy with the better hand can take it?

Perhaps it would be better to worry about "winning" the pot, instead of suckering a fish to "building" the pot?

Lawrence

Quote

03-21-2010 , 09:42 PM

#14

The DaveR

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 19,161

Quote:

Originally Posted by bakku

true, AK/AQ will raise the flop, but they'll also 3bet or raise the turn. also, when you b/3b the flop you're showing so much strength that people just shutdown and go into calldown mode

AQ is not 3-betting the flop or raising the turn in this game.

Quote

03-21-2010 , 09:53 PM

#15

OnTheRail15

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 4,339

Quote:

Originally Posted by gaming_mouse

I think he should b/f. I don't know why you'd do anything else. There are only two aces left in the deck so cominatinitorily (sp?) speaking, it doesn't make up a big chunk of his range.

Quote

03-21-2010 , 10:11 PM

#16

gaming_mouse

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 13,786

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheRail15

I think he should b/f. I don't know why you'd do anything else. There are only two aces left in the deck so cominatinitorily (sp?) speaking, it doesn't make up a big chunk of his range.

Of course you know why, the pot is huge, you might want to get to showdown.

As for combinatorically speaking:

AA/JJ - 2 combos:
KK - 6 combos
QQ - 6 combos
AK - 6 combos
AQ - 8 combos

So it's half his range. Even if you discount AQ it's still like 1/3

@Davr: I dont know where you are getting the 3x number from.

Last edited by gaming_mouse; 03-21-2010 at 10:15 PM. Reason: math error

Quote

03-21-2010 , 10:16 PM

#17

gaming_mouse

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 13,786

Quote:

Originally Posted by The DaveR

AQ is not 3-betting the flop or raising the turn in this game.

No, but AQ is raising the flop and then we can 3bet.

Quote

03-21-2010 , 10:16 PM

#18

The DaveR

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 19,161

Quote:

Originally Posted by gaming_mouse

Of course you know why, the pot is huge, you might want to get to showdown.

As for combinatorically speaking:

AA/JJ - 2 combos:
KK - 6 combos
QQ - 6 combos
AK - 8 combos
AQ - 8 combos

So it's more than half his range. Even if you discount AQ it's close to half

@Davr: I dont know where you are getting the 3x number from.

AK will often raise the turn in that game (say half the time), AA/JJ will do so nearly always. AQ will call down almost always. Some players will bet TT there. 77 is possible but less that 5 players will have that hand. 3x was a guess off the top of my head while watching 60 Minutes on DVR, but looking this over I'd say it's about right. 2.5x/3x

Quote

03-21-2010 , 10:17 PM

#19

gaming_mouse

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 13,786

Quote:

Originally Posted by bakku

true, AK/AQ will raise the flop, but they'll also 3bet or raise the turn. also, when you b/3b the flop you're showing so much strength that people just shutdown and go into calldown mode

So what happens after we c/r the flop?

Quote

03-21-2010 , 10:20 PM

#20

gaming_mouse

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 13,786

Quote:

Originally Posted by The DaveR

Ok that makes sense.

Quote

03-21-2010 , 10:23 PM

#21

bakku

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 4,925

Quote:

Originally Posted by gaming_mouse

So what happens after we c/r the flop?

if the co comes along, cap. if he folds then either 4b or c/r the turn

Quote

03-21-2010 , 10:26 PM

#22

gaming_mouse

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 13,786

Quote:

Originally Posted by bakku

if the co comes along, cap. if he folds then either 4b or c/r the turn

no that's not what i meant. i meant that when we c/r the flop, isn't that slowing down a lot of the same hands as well. and if it doesn't, and we get raised on the turn, its not exactly a place where we are thrilled to 3b.

Quote

03-21-2010 , 10:58 PM

#23

bakku

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 4,925

Quote:

Originally Posted by gaming_mouse

i don't think so because the flop c/r is the standard i have top pair so i c/r to get value/protect my hand (as well as being stronger hands too) while the b/3b play is always a monster.

Quote

03-21-2010 , 11:23 PM

#24

OnTheRail15

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 4,339

Quote:

Originally Posted by gaming_mouse

How convenient. He threebets all combos of AQ but none of TT, 99, 88, KQ.

It doesn't matter if the pot is huge if we're drawing to 3 outs 6 times out of 8 and getting somewhere around 7:1 to call down.

Quote

03-22-2010 , 12:35 AM

#25

gaming_mouse

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 13,786

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheRail15

How convenient. He threebets all combos of AQ but none of TT, 99, 88, KQ.

that's fair. i was thinking "live TAG" = nit, but at least TT/KQs should be in there

Quote:

It doesn't matter if the pot is huge if we're drawing to 3 outs 6 times out of 8 and getting somewhere around 7:1 to call down.

it matters if we're just not sure of our read. i mean, i agree that b/f is pretty safe here, i don't really have a problem with the fold part of it, but you act like it's insane to want to showdown this hand.

when you bet, though, what are you betting for: in case he capped with KQhh or decided to cap AQ? and if did cap KQhh, why is he capable of a flop cap but never a turn raise?

Quote

Page 1 of 2

First

1 2

Last

Post Reply Subscribe

...

Page 1 of 2

First

1 2

Last