20/40 live 9 handed.

I open UTG with AsQs..folded to TAG on the button who 3 bets...99s+ AJs+ AQo+......folded to BB who is a weaker side of TAG(Has very narrow limp and cold call range, misses value.....I don't think he caps here....88s+ JTs+ QJs+ KQs+ AQo+ ATs+...These are just pre flop ranges....BB calls and I call(no cap range here.

4d5c5s...checked to Button who bets, SB raises...what should I do with this hand? What if I had 88s? I assume BB is raising mostly pairs here but could be raising UIP overs but I'm not sure.

Easy Fold

Hey Mongidig,
This is a spot I always wonder about too as it's awkward to have to call two bets cold with the added risk of being stuck in the middle of more raises. The first thought I had was why do you not have a capping range in this spot? With three in the pot and a weaker player in the BB, I think it's worthwhile to have some 4 bets here. That said, if you have a strong read on the button TAG's 3 bet range, I don't think AsQs is strong enough to put in the 4th bet.

I think the flop is a fold due to our relative position, but it may be closer than I originally thought. Taking your reads to be accurate, let's give the BB some big pairs to illustrate equities after the flop.

MP2 17.11% 15.29% 1.82% AsQs
BU 31.74% 29.46% 2.28% 99+, AJs+, AQo+
BB 51.15% 50.60% 0.55% 88+

We're getting 6.75:1 on a call here if we somehow knew the Button will only call behind us which might argue for a call. However, if we take the case when the Button 3 bets behind our odds become worse (5.2:1), even more so if the BB then caps (4.4:1) which is a real possibility. Furthermore, we are going to be stuck in the middle for the turn betting round. As some of our equity comes from back door draws, what are we going to do if the 2c comes off on the turn and the BB leads out?

Because of our reads and our position, I think the BB's flop raise just puts us in too poor of a spot to continue with the hand.

I'd fold and not feel too bad about it. AsKs is more interesting IMO.

I'm happily mucking here. I just don't see why we'd want to continue.

Agree this is a fold.

You asked about 88 too. Usually in this spot I think we continue with 88, but with the ranges you assigned it seems 88 is a fold too.

Based on the descriptions you have provided, AQ is clear fold. Don't think we have a case for continuing with 88 either.

3b it def. better than folding BDFD A high is very strong

Thanks for this.

You are truly the best DonJuan. Offering expert advice based on results and calculations off table. Unless you are being sarcastic but I appreciate best of the best currently offers insight still here.

Let me know if you offer coaching. Unless markets bankrupt me, I would highly consider it unless its outside my limits

just to clarify the solution should a mix strategy of 3b or call. I don't think folding is in the mix. However GTO solution is quite hard to solve since the w the best software right now it still not clear for 3way. There was a few time I saw solution that were folding too much post flop. Found out later that I accidentally put in wrong bet size. From that I am guessing the pot size is what really matters for the result of what the solver gto looks like. Thanks I might consider doing some kind of coaching during summer break just send me an pm if you are interested.

btw just want to quiz people on this why are we "hidden information" pre flop by not 3b or capping in BB or capping as an initial raiser. If the old model was we wanted to protect our weaker range by not having a capping range . How about we turn that around and figure out what the bottom of out opening range and get rid of that and then max. our top range by capping? You can think of it this way if you don't cap the top % there nothing you can do post flop to make up for that lost +Ev in the long run by flatting. Also on post flop there no rules that say you have to continue with bad equity from the top pre flop ranges like AK on 987 tt or JJ on AK8.

Wow DonJuan thank you for the detailed analysis of optimal GTO is to Raise > Call >>>>>>>>>>> Fold.

I would have folded flop so more reason to PM you later this week.

In regards to your question, I'm too dumb and my best friend who wins 2BB/hr live 20/40 half kill games within 2-3 year sample recommended to cap preflop.

When I played 5/10 - 10/20 on AP/UB/Cereus as a prop, AQ suited was a default cap for me preflop in similar situations. Was told that was just wrong like 8 years ago on 2+2 thiough to cap preflop with AQ suited.

Not sure what I'd do now with how important disguising hand strength was enforced to me from reading 2+2 and playing.

To answer your quiz DonJuan I would cap preflop with AQ suited and trim bottom of my opening range.

Thanks for your response!

Are you saying that if If the bottom of my open range is 77+ KTs+'AJo+ etc. It's better to tighten up this range and now have a capping range? Am I just capping the top of this range or all of it?

In this hand, are you 3 betting or calling with just overs that have a back door flush draw? What determines if you 3 bet or just call? As far as UIP overs, are you continuing with anything worse than AQo?

Thanks!

I like this one better than the other one, because even if we're behind, we have >6 outs a lot of the time. Even if we're far behind, we have that sweet, sweet backdoor flush draw.

I agree. This is why I revisted this hand. It's good to see somewhat similar hands side by side.