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08-23-2021 , 04:18 AM

checkraisdraw

veteran

Join Date: Jun 2018 Posts: 2,873

Reads: UTG+1 has played a lot of hands for my small sample size (7/15 hands or so) and only won 1/2 (2/7) that went to showdown, but showed down top two that got counterfeit (9To and lost) and top pair that held

7 handed utg+1 r hero utg+2 3bet AdJs, all fold

9c8s4c 3.5 BB
x/b/c

turn Kh 5.5BB
b/hero ?

Last edited by checkraisdraw; 08-23-2021 at 04:30 AM.

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08-23-2021 , 11:38 AM

LifeRebooted

grinder

Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 594

If I am reading your post correctly, villain leads the turn? I'm folding. This is a very marginal call that you just don't need to ever be making against a typical villain. Most players just have a king here way too often.

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08-23-2021 , 03:30 PM

ninefingershuffle

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 3,542

I’m folding. I may check flop too.

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08-23-2021 , 06:28 PM

checkraisdraw

veteran

Join Date: Jun 2018 Posts: 2,873

Yes, villain led turn.

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09-20-2021 , 02:49 PM

AlanBostick

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 11,473

Quote:

Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle

I’m folding.

Me, too.

Quote:

I may check flop too.

Why?

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09-21-2021 , 06:14 PM

ninefingershuffle

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 3,542

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlanBostick

Me, too.

Why?

I think you need to have some sort of check back range. Dude opened early and unless he is a maniac, then AJ suddenly becomes kinda meh on this flop. AK AQ are still ahead and won't fold, pocket pairs are ahead and won't fold, all sorts of QJ-89s type hands are now either ahead or have some sort of draw they won't fold. So the only hands you are targeting for value are AT, KJ, KQ type of hands. It's fine to let him have a free one when he now has the range advantage and see what the turn is.

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09-22-2021 , 04:23 AM

checkraisdraw

veteran

Join Date: Jun 2018 Posts: 2,873

If I checked behind and he led the turn, would we still go for the fold? I assume yes.

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09-22-2021 , 10:10 AM

ninefingershuffle

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 3,542

Quote:

Originally Posted by checkraisdraw

If I checked behind and he led the turn, would we still go for the fold? I assume yes.

On that card yes

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10-13-2021 , 02:41 AM

Mason Malmuth

Former Top Dog

Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 13,013

Quote:

Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle

I’m folding. I may check flop too.

It would have to be an extremely tight raiser for you to correctly fold the A

. And it you don't fold, then you should three bet.

Mason

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10-13-2021 , 02:51 AM

#10

Mason Malmuth

Former Top Dog

Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 13,013

Quote:

Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle

I understand your argument that his range with this particular flop may be stronger than yours. But there are 7 1/2 bets out there and you don't have to pick it up very often for your bet to be correct. Also, your bet may buy you a free turn card if the turn card doesn't help you. In addition, I think some players would fold an AQ here and more will fold an AJ (which you forgot to mention). So, I believe a flop bet is correct.

If you had raised first in with the same hand, only the big blind called, and the same flop came, then this might be a good time for a check back range. Do you see why?

Mason

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10-13-2021 , 02:57 AM

#11

Mason Malmuth

Former Top Dog

Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 13,013

Quote:

Originally Posted by checkraisdraw

If I checked behind and he led the turn, would we still go for the fold? I assume yes.

One of the reasons to check behind is that if an ace, king, queen, or jack hits you would have a bet.

But in this example, your opponent bet when the king hit instead of letting you bet. I think the answer here is that you need to consider a lot of things:

1. This looks like a card that you would often bet. So why did your opponent bet into you?

2. Did your flop check now induce your opponent to bluff? A small percentage of players can't help themselves when you make a flop check like this.

3. How aggressive is your opponent anyway?

I think if the answers to these questions are positive in your favor, you don't fold (and may even raise).

Mason

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10-13-2021 , 10:13 AM

#12

ninefingershuffle

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 3,542

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth

It would have to be an extremely tight raiser for you to correctly fold the A

. And it you don't fold, then you should three bet.

Mason

The turn? We have no pair no draw and may be dead to 3 outs.

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10-26-2021 , 04:28 PM

#13

RosaParks1

adept

Join Date: Sep 2018 Posts: 812

Quote:

Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle

The turn? We have no pair no draw and may be dead to 3 outs.

He means preflop. His post also is a little off because he misread the flop action. It was headsup and went check, bet, call. He read it as you checking the flop, which is wrong because you were in position based on the preflop action.

This seems like a grumbling fold because he really has to have JTs or QJs in order to have raised preflop, airballed this (in terms of SD value), and led the turn and have your AJ still be ahead.

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10-30-2021 , 09:22 PM

#14

nonsimplesimon

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 10,007

Quote:

Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle

I think you need to have some sort of check back range.

IP 3b pot? Don't we want to be building a pot ip with our range uncapped range advantage in most circumstances? ... If we check does this "cap" us? And is that necessarily a good thing given pf action?

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11-24-2021 , 11:45 PM

#15

asmitty

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 4,442

NH so far, now fold turn. You don’t get to win every hand.

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11-26-2021 , 04:13 AM

#16

checkraisdraw

veteran

Join Date: Jun 2018 Posts: 2,873

Thanks for the responses I

Spoiler:

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11-27-2021 , 10:29 PM

#17

bicyclekick

luckbox

Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,078

I'm rarely folding this one on the turn fwiw

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12-07-2021 , 05:39 PM

#18

NittyOldMan1

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 1,431

flop is a standard vb imo, against a standard range i dont see how you arent ahead of almost everything on this flop except mid pairs or sometimes QQ-KK that wants to CR

turn is a fold this is like KQo or such always, remember you are raising his EP raise from UTG+2 so your range should be very strong (probably this should be the bottom of your 3bet range).

also you should peg villian as pretty bad postflop as he should have no hands here to donk. KQo should be c/cing worried that you have AA, AK should be CRing because that blocks AA.

Last edited by NittyOldMan1; 12-07-2021 at 05:45 PM.

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01-10-2022 , 11:21 PM

#19

sfetaz

adept

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 863

You need to win two big bets when you include the river to win six and a half big bets (unless he checks river). In my experience live limit donking is way more often a bluffs/semibluff then the about 30% of the time you need to win here.

Obviously this is complicated if they have a weak pocket pair or get there on the river, but I would call down with K high here here if the turn was a queen.

If he has a king or better, you know he donks when he hits. Never pay for information, pay because you should be good here more than 30% of the time.

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02-18-2022 , 09:08 AM

#20

6MaxLHE

veteran

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 2,007

Quote:

Originally Posted by bicyclekick

I'm rarely folding this one on the turn fwiw

+1. Villain can easily have all combos of JT , QT+. A good lag is going to semibluff donk the turn if they put you on AJ or AQ. Call turn and all brick rivers.

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02-20-2022 , 07:32 AM

#21

DonJuan

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 1,540

Assuming worst case scenario. Don't think every reg will donk out w AK 100% of time so that should increase your equity a tiny bit( goes to 14-15%) you need 13%. there might be a bit more semi bluffing with FD/SD most regs are train not to play like this so you might biases in thinking that less common than reality. I do like k/b with AJ although I keep forgetting to do it more. You don't want to cbet hands that block opponent c/r semi bluff range.

In term of live you can be pretty biases in your read ex. young, old and also people emotions last few hours ex people over adjust running good or bad within a few hours. how long they play.

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02-20-2022 , 03:21 PM

#22

holmfries

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 6,301

We know ��

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04-06-2022 , 09:33 AM

#23

maka2184

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,537

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6MaxLHE

+1. Villain can easily have all combos of JT , QT+. A good lag is going to semibluff donk the turn if they put you on AJ or AQ. Call turn and all brick rivers.

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04-06-2022 , 09:39 AM

#24

maka2184

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,537

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonJuan

100% right.

Thank you very much DonJuan!

OT:
1. Donjuan
2. Berri Sweet
3. Bicyclekick

Current LHE top three or does Berri Sweet never play LHE anymore 2022?

PS: Phenomenal to hear you've been playinf live LHE taking rolls from opponents in addition to crushing bum hunters online ^_^

Last edited by maka2184; 04-06-2022 at 09:41 AM. Reason: DonJuan #1 AINEC