Live 9 handed. I have a tight image. The lineup is the same in both hands.

Hand 1) UTG raises(I have seen him raise with complete junk here before but more often he'll have any broadway, pairs, any Ace etc. He is kind of a maniac preflop, but slows way down post flop and respects what he considers legitamate aggression shown by others. If it is heads up or with maybe one other player he will give up quickly if he has nothing. If it is multiway, he will stay in until river trying to catch anything), UTG+1 calls(He is average at best, probably calls here with any pair, many broadways, ABC type player)............I am next with Ad9d......The players behind us are pretty tight and respect my raises.....Is this a good spot to three bet?

Hand 2) UTG raises, two players coldcall, I am in HJ with A9s.....should I call here?

I fold both times.

just stoving (which isn't great we agree), I get you vs first villain at:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 47.359% 43.40% 03.96% 918452244 83856828.00 { 22+, A2s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, A2o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 1: 52.641% 48.68% 03.96% 1030241844 83856828.00 { A9s }



throwing in the other joker I get:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 30.051% 28.43% 01.63% 4449746936 254926994.17 { 77+, A9s+, KJs-K9s, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KTo+, QJo }
Hand 1: 42.493% 39.59% 02.91% 6197071178 455418936.67 { 66+, A9s+, KTs+, QJs, ATo+, KQo }
Hand 2: 27.455% 25.49% 01.97% 3990578573 307638816.17 { KQo }

I'm inclined to simply call here, and folding is fine but it depends on how aggressive the guys behind you are.

in case 2 I always call.

doign more calculations, I'm for sure folding hand 1.

hand 2 if I get 6 ways is close. We'll be in position with borderline equity in a hand that plays well multi way. I'm not nitty enough to fold there.

I fold 1. Two I think is a rare "cold calling is ok" case, but you don't lose much by folding. As rafiki says, you want as many opponents as possible here...looking for tells from the players behind you would be nice

Hand one I would generally be a fold for me. I might lean to calling if the players behind me are loose and passive(reducing the chances of a 3 bet), and the blinds are loose. I don't like 3 betting.

Hand 2 is usually a call. Again preferring the blinds be loose and expected to come along.

I fold both.

You said the players behind you were tight in scenario 1. You are two positions closer to the button in scenario 2. The line up is the same. Therefore, there are still tight players behind you in scenario 2. We need two of the remaining 4 players to come along. I just don't think that happens enough. Also, you have UTG in scenario 2 listed as the tight SB in scenario 1, assuming same seating arrangements, therefore his range has you crushed.

In hand 1, would UTG+1 3bet with a bigger ace than yours? If that were the case then you don't face the same risk of domination. This situation seems so marginal it is probably best to fold regardless.

If the other players cold calling UTG raise realize he has a wide raising range then I think calling in hand 2 is fine.

They're both folds. Playing Axs for a raise in LHE is a good way to bleed small amounts of money slowly for a long time.

Do you guy's still agree with the responses here?

+1

I'm surprised at the answers.

I would 3 bet the first hand given the description of the players.

I would call hand 2.

I would do the same, but when I played online during that era I definitely would have folded.

In both cases this is a 3 bet. Your A9s versus his described range in scenario one has just over 50% equity. In the second scenario keep in mind if your hand isn't strong enough to 3 bet, then you probably shouldn't be calling with few exceptions and there was no re-raise between you and the initial raiser, which means that they definitely do not have any significantly strong hand. They probably have one of those "to good to fold hands" like JTs or a small to medium pair that most players overvalue.

You realize in hand one you are in early position with a bunch of people left to act? Also, someone who is lag still may have an utg range that dominates A9. Further, how sticky is this person?

Right. If I was button and it folded to me? I'd 3 bet without considering any other option, but not 5 spots from the button for 3 bets with all those characters behind.

Now, vs a straddle and a limp? I'm 3 betting.

Yes, I do realize my position. Obviously there are always hands within his RANGE that will dominate A9, that's why it's called a range, however A9 suited versus the entirety of a LAGS RANGE is a borderline 3 bet hand. It actually falls right on my cutoff, which is AT off, KQ suited A9 suited and 88.............By the way "hello" to everyone on 2+2, as today is my first day posting on here. I have casually read the posts here for years, but decided to dive into a subject that I felt was in my interest and wheel house today. I'm a long time limit grinder here in SF Bay area, playing mostly live $40/80 and $80/160. Cheers!

Hello and welcome to the forums.

One thing that comes to mind reading this thread is that sometimes it's ok to 3 bet a second best hand if there are bad players padding your draw.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...32/?highlight=

my opinion on this hasn't changed much since this post. But five off the button? Idk guys 3 betting is either a small mistake or a small gain here. No sense beating ourselves up over it either way.

Absolutely, as I said it's right on my edge of my 3 betting range, thus by definition only a "perceived" small advantage. Folding here can never be too wrong. Always keep in mind the dead money from the blinds you hope to fold out as you said would make this a positive EV play even if your equity were ever so slightly behind his range....

Agreed, but you are in too early position here unless you have the absolute tightest people behind you.

I'm 4 off the button not 5. It's a 9 handed game.

Sidenote: we now strat talk decade old threads in here?

So you prefer nothingness?

Hand one 3-bet given info
Hand two call

If hand 2 had only one cold caller, then you'd need more info about utg/blinds before playing.

I think hand 1 is a perfect spot to take advantage of reads..lag to right, tight to left and my tight image. I think these situations pop up once in a while and need to be taken advantage of even if your position may not be ideal.

The times is doesn't work in your favor you may be able to at least show your hand and widen your perceived 3 bet range.