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07-11-2023 , 11:34 PM
Who is folding a 3 or 5 on the turn? If his raise is anything it’s a raise for value, and then his value runs out on the river because if I’m bluffing I won’t be able to call regardless.
89dd 30/60 Quote
07-11-2023 , 11:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by checkraisdraw
Who is folding a 3 or 5 on the turn? If his raise is anything it’s a raise for value, and then his value runs out on the river because if I’m bluffing I won’t be able to call regardless.
No. This is clearly a bluff raise. Maybe a dumb bluff raise but a bluff raise nonetheless. If the hero isn't folding a 3 or 5 then yea it's just a bad play by villain. I'm just saying if villain thinks hero will fold that hand type then I like his play. I do think there are players, however rare, who can have that hand and fold it in this spot.

Edit: actually a better way to put it: this is primarily a bluff raise with the added bonus of sometimes being a value raise when hero has a draw or air.

Last edited by ILOVEPOKER929; 07-12-2023 at 12:07 AM.
89dd 30/60 Quote
07-12-2023 , 12:55 AM
I can't imagine many players not folding a 3 or a 5 with nothing else there. Maybe they call if they have an ace with it.

Actually the more I think about it, the more I like villain's play. I still think it's not a spot that will come up often though.
89dd 30/60 Quote
07-12-2023 , 08:51 PM
I would love to know if that is a realistic expectation. Because if people are folding pairs in a bloated pot I should start raising the turn.

Personally I would not fold a 3 or 5 if I played that way because it has a draw to 5 outs against his most obvious value hand (a king)

Certainly if his plan is to bluff me off a 3 or 5 he would do well to bet the river.

Last edited by checkraisdraw; 07-12-2023 at 08:57 PM.
89dd 30/60 Quote
07-12-2023 , 09:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by checkraisdraw
I would love to know if that is a realistic expectation. Because if people are folding pairs in a bloated pot I should start raising the turn.

Personally I would not fold a 3 or 5 if I played that way because it has a draw to 5 outs against his most obvious value hand (a king)

Certainly if his plan is to bluff me off a 3 or 5 he would do well to bet the river.
You don't have direct odds to draw to a 5 outer though if that's what he has. The only way that play makes sense is if you think he could be bluffing, or you plan to bluff some river cards, and that's not a small investment. And if you call the raise on the turn, are you going to feel good about folding a blank river?
89dd 30/60 Quote
07-15-2023 , 11:25 AM
I think in an aggressive short handed game if I had a pair on the turn and the hand played out as described I’d call the turn raise and probably most rivers. If we have a pair and the villain raises when the king hits he can have a king but he could also have combo draw or he’s trying to represent a king.
89dd 30/60 Quote
07-16-2023 , 09:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by checkraisdraw
I would love to know if that is a realistic expectation. Because if people are folding pairs in a bloated pot I should start raising the turn.

Personally I would not fold a 3 or 5 if I played that way because it has a draw to 5 outs against his most obvious value hand (a king)

Certainly if his plan is to bluff me off a 3 or 5 he would do well to bet the river.
How is the pot bloated. Before the turn raise it's not.
I don't mind an occasional turn 3b for the reasons hardinthepaint mentioned. But the most important factor imo that only you know, does he auto pop the turn with his Kx hands. It may seem nitty not to but lot of 30 players are happy to call with their KJ especially if your image is on the tighter side.
89dd 30/60 Quote
07-16-2023 , 02:28 PM
Yes it’s not bloated until he raises the turn, but raising the turn is what makes the pot big (calling 1 big bet to win 7 big bets is a fairly large pot/overlay). Therefore chasing/calling down light should in theory become more feasible since you are getting a price. Maybe medium sized pot is a better way to put it.

Quote:
I don't mind an occasional turn 3b for the reasons hardinthepaint mentioned. But the most important factor imo that only you know, does he auto pop the turn with his Kx hands. It may seem nitty not to but lot of 30 players are happy to call with their KJ especially if your image is on the tighter side.
See this is the part that I don’t really like to get into as far as the meta game. Because most of what I saw of his play was either when we were playing full ring, from when he was running somewhat below expectation with regards to EV, or after this. I will say he was a pretty active player even in full ring, not getting out of line but playing a little bit more loose. He was aggressive with turn raises. But many of those hands either didn’t go to showdown so all I can say was that he wasn’t afraid to raise the turn.

The results of this hand and some other hands I saw made me think that he was capable of having some light turn raises (so a king should be a slam dunk), but I didn’t have that info at the time.

I also don’t play 30 that much, but it wasn’t the typical 30 game either. It was 30/60 with a 2/3 kill up to 50/100, which we took off for 4 handed play. I’m guessing this will err on the more aggressive side.

I think the line I took if anything I am interested in the adjustment that ninefingershuffle pointed to, which is to just delay everything to the turn. That hasn’t been my strategy with my bluffs or value but maybe that’s a leak in my game.

My instincts were what you said originally, that players just don’t raise enough as a bluff for me to go for a re-bluff, so ultimately that’s what led me to shrug and click call.
89dd 30/60 Quote
07-17-2023 , 05:44 PM
OP,

What does opponent think of your flop x/r range?

Does he think you play call with your entire range or do you have 3B preflop?
89dd 30/60 Quote

      
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