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Old 08-21-2017, 10:47 AM   #1
pokerjeebus
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80/160 top pair

80/160 holdem full table.

Hero opens KhTh in mid. Villain 3 bets next in. Co calls. But calls. Sb call. Bb call. Hero call.

Flop t64r. Check to villain he bets. All call. Hero?

Game is very good everyone in the hand is a random spaz besides villain who's fairly solid. Will check here unimproved. Not sure if 66 gets 3 bet but probably 77+. Anyone like lead flop?
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Old 08-21-2017, 12:11 PM   #2
SetofJacks
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Re: 80/160 top pair

I tend to 4! pre with KTs here 6 ways because I think it has a small equity edge against the field (even though it's almost certainly behind villain's range). If it's only 4 or 5 ways, or it was KTo, I would only call.

Regardless, I like a flop donk here. Sometimes villain will protect our hand for us by raising 77-99, JTs, QTs, and that's definitely important in a pot this size. Sometimes they will even protect our hand by raising AQ/AK to try to get a free card. I'd also hate for them to check AQ/AK when checked to.

And yes, a flop donk is likely to turn our hand face up as Tx, but I don't particularly care about that in a big pot like this.
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Old 08-21-2017, 01:01 PM   #3
Clayton
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Re: 80/160 top pair

i dont mind leading flop, i think a solid player may not cbet their high cards into this field on this texture.
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Old 08-21-2017, 01:21 PM   #4
Kash Boyd
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Re: 80/160 top pair

If I was villain, I wouldn't bet the flop so I like the reasoning behind a flop lead.


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Old 08-21-2017, 04:01 PM   #5
jdr0317
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Re: 80/160 top pair

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Originally Posted by pokerjeebus View Post
80/160 holdem full table.

Hero opens KhTh in mid. Villain 3 bets next in. Co calls. But calls. Sb call. Bb call. Hero call.

Flop t64r. Check to villain he bets. All call. Hero?

Game is very good everyone in the hand is a random spaz besides villain who's fairly solid. Will check here unimproved. Not sure if 66 gets 3 bet but probably 77+. Anyone like lead flop?
lol @ bolded.

Really we can donk if opponent isn't betting too often on this texture, check raise if they're betting frequency, or even consider check call if their range is very strong preflop. Just don't do much folding unless it's 3 bets cold back to you.
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Old 08-21-2017, 11:18 PM   #6
dadjoey
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Re: 80/160 top pair

What hands would villain seriously check back if villain 3-bet your open and 4 others cold called? Even if we give villain 77, 88, 99, JQ, JK, shouldn't villain continue barreling?
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Old 08-21-2017, 11:22 PM   #7
ninefingershuffle
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Re: 80/160 top pair

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What hands would villain seriously check back if villain 3-bet your open and 4 others cold called? Even if we give villain 77, 88, 99, JQ, JK, shouldn't villain continue barreling?
It would be bad to bet unimproved high cards like Ak or aq here
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Old 08-22-2017, 01:17 AM   #8
steveistheman84
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Re: 80/160 top pair

i don't understand leading flop. there's 3 people behind you including the guy with the lead. yeah, i'm checking ui if villain, but there's still 2 behind him. i think i just call flop if villain is any good.
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Old 08-22-2017, 02:13 AM   #9
UpHillBothWays
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Re: 80/160 top pair

while it may be bad to BET an unimproved AK/AQ here for example, it may not be a bad idea to raise such a hand if led into, which could clear out hands that would beat you by more than you contributing to a spot where you could be reverse dominated could hurt you if you hit.

therefore, i'm leading this flop all day. lots and lots of turns are bad in lots of ways and if the action is bonkers behind me, i can release since t6/64/44/66 aren't out of bounds and if 4 people are putting in 4 bets when 2 of the tens are dead, tpgk isn't going to get the money and i can fold for the 3 extra bets.

folding out 85s type hands (and there's lots of them) is worth it. sure, some peole will call, but that's a mistake. calling for 1 bet isn't a mistake. not closing the action and calling a double bet with a gutshot is a costly one b/c it can be reraised. obv i'm not reraising here once raised, but still.

so yea, i can't see a reason why we'd want to check this hand on this flop. too much bad happens when we check, too much good comes from betting.
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Old 08-22-2017, 03:18 AM   #10
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Re: 80/160 top pair

As played, even if you give the villain 100% made hands AA down to 77 and ATs once he continues, whether to C/R the flop with this many people in becomes very interesting. You'll be drawing to 2-5 outs vs AA-JJ and its so amazing when you C/R when he had 99-77. Letting him 3-bet to knock out hands like QJ or pocket pairs might actually be good. Preflop, I think once two people call 3-bets you can give villain or other more credit for some kind of pocket pair since you have a K and others likely have random A's and K's. Very unlikely this flop check through.
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Old 08-22-2017, 02:34 PM   #11
pokerjeebus
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Re: 80/160 top pair

I don't think villain should 3 bet 77-99 after I cr the field on this dry board I think if he 3 bets us after we cr the flop we are kinda toast. When we lead and villain raises I almost feel like we just isolate ourselves vs a range that beats us. Feels like both options suck. I did check the flop out of habit and then wasn't sure what to do.

Last edited by pokerjeebus; 08-22-2017 at 02:48 PM.
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Old 08-22-2017, 11:32 PM   #12
bipolarbearclaw
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Re: 80/160 top pair

Yeah I didn't think 99-77 3 bets flop but they probably 3 bet pre and CB flop.
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Old 08-23-2017, 03:31 AM   #13
Mason Malmuth
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Re: 80/160 top pair

Quote:
Originally Posted by SetofJacks View Post
I tend to 4! pre with KTs here 6 ways because I think it has a small equity edge against the field (even though it's almost certainly behind villain's range). If it's only 4 or 5 ways, or it was KTo, I would only call.

Regardless, I like a flop donk here. Sometimes villain will protect our hand for us by raising 77-99, JTs, QTs, and that's definitely important in a pot this size. Sometimes they will even protect our hand by raising AQ/AK to try to get a free card. I'd also hate for them to check AQ/AK when checked to.

And yes, a flop donk is likely to turn our hand face up as Tx, but I don't particularly care about that in a big pot like this.
Hi SetofJacks:

While what you say is probably correct relative to what Villian will raise on the flop, but most everyone will call the two bets anyway, at least that's my experience, in a pot this size.

Best wishes,
Mason
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Old 08-25-2017, 11:40 AM   #14
DeathDonkey
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Re: 80/160 top pair

I would bet 3 bet flop, as played id checkraise and cap if everyone stays in. He can turn QQ faceup and you make money jamming here.
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Old 08-25-2017, 09:38 PM   #15
PaulValente
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Re: 80/160 top pair

Seems like a classic implicit collusion spot. Big pot, lots of players, preflop aggressor on your left. Bet and give villain a chance to knock out some players.
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Old 08-26-2017, 12:24 AM   #16
Montrealcorp
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Re: 80/160 top pair

But what if he doesn't raise ?
I mean why turn our best "relative" position into the worst one postflop ?
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Old 08-26-2017, 06:46 AM   #17
DeathDonkey
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Re: 80/160 top pair

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montrealcorp View Post
But what if he doesn't raise ?
I mean why turn our best "relative" position into the worst one postflop ?


Don't worry about this, if we bet and he doesn't raise, fine, great even. But if we check and he doesn't bet it's a disaster. And if he does his range is pretty strong!
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Old 08-26-2017, 10:03 AM   #18
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Re: 80/160 top pair

-dont think we have enough value to jam PF for value. Not great relative position; over call ranges tend to be stronger. If it went limp limp hero-bet V-3b, I'd consider it.

-my preference is to go for xr. sometimes 3bettor will cbet overs. If he checks, not disaster since there are two overcallers who can lead. Even if flop checks, blinds may now lead turn with worse and we get more FE on turn.

-i really hate turning our hand face up so early.
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Old 08-26-2017, 07:29 PM   #19
Montrealcorp
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Re: 80/160 top pair

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathDonkey View Post
Don't worry about this, if we bet and he doesn't raise, fine, great even. But if we check and he doesn't bet it's a disaster. And if he does his range is pretty strong!
i am not sure it is a disaster if it ends up being check.
it means we probably have the best hand and they would have even worst odds to call on turn on a good turn card.
leading the flop , everyone would call correctly anyway.
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Old 08-26-2017, 08:08 PM   #20
6MaxLHE
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Re: 80/160 top pair

Depends on villian but against an aggro player I am x/ring this flop. Even if villian has JJ, QQ here we still have >20% equity vs. remaining players ranges and should be x/r/capping this flop.

Donking this flop IMO isolates us against a stronger range and likely a more competent player given the preflop action. We should be x/ring to earn extra dead money from the blinds as our hand has more equity vs. their weaker ranges.
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Old 08-27-2017, 03:57 AM   #21
phunkphish
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Re: 80/160 top pair

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montrealcorp View Post
i am not sure it is a disaster if it ends up being check.
it means we probably have the best hand and they would have even worst odds to call on turn on a good turn card.
leading the flop , everyone would call correctly anyway.
It doesn't matter if they correctly call -- we still profit since we have the equity advantage.

Giving them worse odds also doesn't seem to apply here either -- our net profit is static unless it forces them to fold out their equity.
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Old 08-27-2017, 07:45 PM   #22
ChuckFinley
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Re: 80/160 top pair

Leading the flop is fine but I am not convinced checking is a leak. When the pfr does wisely check his air, even passive players in CO/BT's seat love to bet any pair/draw here because it's their chance to finally "be aggressive" at the cost of 1 small bet. If it does check around sometimes we can raise turn leads from stupid pairs in the blinds that are betting because everyone checked because nobody has anything.
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Old 08-29-2017, 01:41 PM   #23
asmitty
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Re: 80/160 top pair

I do not play this high, but I would probably check with the plan of c/c'ing if villain bets and c/r'ing if the CO or the BTN bets. If villain does have unimproved high cards and checks flop, seems like this puts us in the best position to face him with 2 bets in a big pot. I think donking is a better plan if villain were a tagfish or if the CO and BTN were very passive, but I would rather let one of them do something spastic and then face villain with 2 bets.
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Old 08-29-2017, 02:57 PM   #24
pokerjeebus
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Re: 80/160 top pair

Feels like cr thd field on the flop is ok since we do have about 20% vs the cbetting range 6 ways. But if we cr and the good player 3 bets I'm surprised at the cap suggestion vs a range that probably looks like 66, tt-aa.
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Old 08-30-2017, 06:05 AM   #25
leavesofliberty
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Re: 80/160 top pair

Thread belongs in the low stakes forum, ldo.
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