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Old 12-05-2017, 12:33 AM   #51
Kevin J
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Re: 40-80 hand

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Originally Posted by phunkphish View Post
You can also input player inferences and have the bot spit out better lines. That is what I would call optimal.
This is what I would call exploitative.

A randomized 33% rock, paper, scissors strategy is optimal.

I think maybe you just have it backwards?
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Old 12-05-2017, 02:43 PM   #52
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Re: 40-80 hand

Meh. I think it's confusion between the colloquial "optimal" and "(game theory) optimal".

Every player should strive to play optimally, meaning using all available information. The latter is mostly inapplicable in practice. I wanted to point out, to those who don't know, that bots can be used to develop optimized exploitive lines.

Re river. oTR: do you think villain vbetting a 9 is expert or bad?
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Old 12-05-2017, 03:31 PM   #53
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Re: 40-80 hand

I think it’s clearly good vs most posting in this thread.


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Old 12-05-2017, 05:40 PM   #54
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Re: 40-80 hand

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Originally Posted by phunkphish View Post
Meh. I think it's confusion between the colloquial "optimal" and "(game theory) optimal".

Every player should strive to play optimally, meaning using all available information. The latter is mostly inapplicable in practice. I wanted to point out, to those who don't know, that bots can be used to develop optimized exploitive lines.

Re river. oTR: do you think villain vbetting a 9 is expert or bad?
More thoughts :

My rock paper example was bad. My thinking is that GTO processes can be applied at various nodes. We can apply GTO starting pre flop and assign PF ranges. We can also apply GTO to the river and assign river ranges. To me, that's optimal and "GTO optimal" to this node/minigame. Semantics.


Ranges always matter. Period.


I strongly disagree that "because we want to bluff a lot we have to value bet this hand". That's dangerously flawed. Decide on how many value hands you have first before deciding how many hands you can bluff. That might mean zero bluffs and zero raises. Others have added on this too.
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Old 12-05-2017, 05:42 PM   #55
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Re: 40-80 hand

Ffs what are you quoting? I never said that.


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Old 12-06-2017, 12:23 PM   #56
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Re: 40-80 hand

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I strongly disagree that "because we want to bluff a lot we have to value bet this hand". That's dangerously flawed.
If you're talking about OTR, he never said, "because we want to bluff a lot we have to value bet this hand". And he certainly didn't say anything remotely close to "dangerously flawed". On the contrary, he nailed this river situation against the expert in his first post and concluded his range wasn't as polarized as many of us assumed.

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Decide on how many value hands you have first before deciding how many hands you can bluff. That might mean zero bluffs and zero raises. Others have added on this too.
Right. up2ng, SetofJacks, PaulValente, and others have some excellent posts ITT. After a thorough reading I don't find any of them to be in conflict with what OTR stated and there's a good reason for that. You should re-read this thread a couple of times. I'm struggling to learn the nuances of GTO play myself and it helped me.
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Old 12-07-2017, 03:02 AM   #57
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Re: 40-80 hand

I Reread thread.

"Ffs" Otrs first 4 posts focus on wanting to have bluffs, so we HAVE to raise this hand. Seemingly to balance bluffs -- Up2g also interpreted it that way. otr's 5th post is really good and clarifies his position. " Ffs" just quote your 5th post next time.
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:50 AM   #58
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Re: 40-80 hand

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I Reread thread.

"Ffs" Otrs first 4 posts focus on wanting to have bluffs, so we HAVE to raise this hand. Seemingly to balance bluffs -- Up2g also interpreted it that way. otr's 5th post is really good and clarifies his position. " Ffs" just quote your 5th post next time.
If his 5th post is really good and clarifies his position, why are you still misrepresenting that position in post #38 and continuing to argue thru post #47?

Also:

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So I just realized, it sounds like what you were saying is that if we are in that spot with a hand that we might want to turn into a bluff, we might do so with the assumption that we'd also be raising with hands like AT in our minds. But then when the same situation arises and we are actually holding AT, we decide to play these holdings conservatively and just call. Now all of a sudden we have become bluff heavy in this spot when we didn't intend to be, which would be a mistake. I do agree with all of that.
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Old 12-07-2017, 10:46 AM   #59
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Re: 40-80 hand

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Originally Posted by phunkphish View Post
I Reread thread.

"Ffs" Otrs first 4 posts focus on wanting to have bluffs, so we HAVE to raise this hand. Seemingly to balance bluffs -- Up2g also interpreted it that way. otr's 5th post is really good and clarifies his position. " Ffs" just quote your 5th post next time.
You are wrong. Learn what a conditional statement means. Mason would for sure ban you for this thread. (Free jonlocke).
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Old 12-07-2017, 03:15 PM   #60
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Re: 40-80 hand

jonlocke isn't banned anymore, he just posted a few days ago.
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Old 12-07-2017, 03:35 PM   #61
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Re: 40-80 hand

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jonlocke isn't banned anymore, he just posted a few days ago.
Yeah, but he vowed no more content posts, which is a huge loss.
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Old 12-07-2017, 03:37 PM   #62
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Re: 40-80 hand

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Yeah, but he vowed no more content posts, which is a huge loss.
He said that before he was banned. The banning has nothing to do with it, and he can free himself anytime he wants to.
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:22 PM   #63
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Re: 40-80 hand

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He said that before he was banned. The banning has nothing to do with it, and he can free himself anytime he wants to.
I post all content on my phone (hence the typos). And was logged on my dead money account. It’s banned and I can’t even log out of it or access 2+2 on my phone so I wouldn’t even be free to post content if I wanted to...

Regardless, I won’t post any content because I would hate for my free advise to offend someone and get me banned. Sadly I need to keep my account so I’m free to buy and sell tourney action. Given the choices to change the tone in which I post advise or to not post advise at all I’ve chosen the latter.

And I only created a new account because i can only access my normal one one devise.

This is an interesting spot. Good luck
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:31 PM   #64
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Re: 40-80 hand

Seems very unusual that you couldn't log out of one account and sign into another from your phone, but you can start a totally new account from it. But whatever, you can post or not, whatever you like, at your determination tion. Just wanted to clarify that you are not banned as was mistakenly implied here, didn't mean to derail thread into old stuff.
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