We have ultra aggressive 30/60 1/2 kill game. We have 2-3 games everyday which consists of 70% ultra aggressive regulars. 4 ways cap it pref lop is pretty regular thing in this game. I played this game using basic ABC game and had some success but I am wondering what is the best way to beat such game. I talked with the regular why they are 3 betting with such holding like 910s, J9S, Q8, and any pair, any 2 big cards, connectors.So his answer was that they are trying to create pot odds for such cards and because pot is so huge pref lop they can can with any draws. According to him this is how they are protecting the game from nits and people who want to play good cards only.

My questions is does that make sense?
How to play in such game?

And most of these regulars are rich Asian gamblers who love crazy action game

tighten up.

where is this game?

Man, I may have to give Denver a visit.

And PGA is right on. All you have to do here is tighten your range and steer clear of drawing hands--don't be putting in 4 bets with 9T suited.

i have heard that the regulars in that game play that way because they are colluding.

It depends what you call colluding. They just raise the action preflop, but I didn't see any obvious colluding cases and lately the floor does better job controlling that game. But of course you never know if a five players in a games share the action but that is an issue in any higher limit game with regular players.

BigBad is probably right.

Welcome to foxwoods

That doesn't happen in my 30 game, which is a very small player pool and almost all regs.

I'm a regular there and I highly doubt there's anyone colluding in the 20. Who do you think is colluding and why? Shoot me a pm if you like.

Sure it makes sense. He's admitting to team play. If me and my friends playing out of a shared bankroll build large pots preflop and put a ton of pressure on you post flop, we can check it down once we get HU we've got a rudimentary plan for collusion. I hope we don't discuss whether or not this is a profitable way to collude, but basically you have regulars in the game who are acting in concert to in their minds build a better game. As individuals pokerwise, many of the hands on your list make no sense to play this way.
You need to understand how your starting hand, position, and relative position to the raiser match up to the action you expect in the pot when you choose to play a hand-- the hand will play differently until you fold. You're basically going to get put to a number of hard decisions as the hand goes along, so hands that flop big draws and strong leading hands are the best. Hitting sets in a game like this is good.

No idea why foxwoods came up, our OP is from Denver and it would be a much shorter drive to our local casinos.

Is this the game at Ameristar Casino in Black Hawk, Colorado? I spent a week there last spring and this has to be the craziest games I have ever played in. There is for sure some teaming going on but it is still worth playing because most of the regulars are morons and they just pass the money around. It is for sure worth spending a week or so there to play it, with the 1/2 kill it can get large, plus they have a ginourmous jackpot that's like 750k and a backup jackpot that's almost as big.

In my experience, very aggressive play amonst players who all know each other (and who even might be friends) can feel like collusion but isn't necessary collusion. I've definitely played in games where I knew there wasn't collusion, and the players individually were playing badly, but against them as a group I felt like I had zero edge. Sometimes there's players that check down versus each other, and it's obvious they're friends. Sometimes there's players who battle each other like crazy because neither of them really care about the money, and then there's everything in between.

Like someone said, you just have to adjust to the fact that you will face some tough decisions with most of your hands in multi-way pots. Your swings will be greater in such a game of course, but you should be able to adjust to it.

If most pots are 4+ dudes multiway and if the action is big preflop and on the flop, this is a gold mine

Yep, Ameristar. Swings tell me about it...... first game I won 2500$,2nd, 1000, 3rd -3000,4th -1500, 5th-1000 I see people loosing 5000$ per evening regular y or guy running 400 to 4000$.

Let's put this in BB. Even ignoring the 50/100 hands, you just said:
Mix in some 50/100 and the swings are even smaller. Basically, these are yawn-worthy results in big bets. Pretty much any mid-stakes player sees swing like this. Welcome to LHE.

plus 1

I am tempted to visit sometime. Give not-commerce a chance.

As long as the fact that the fact that the game doesn't go 24/7 and that there are basically 1-3 tables of games bigger than 4/8 doesn't bug you, it is a great place to play. If you don't show up at the right time, you could wait hours for the must-move game to go.

At what point should you stop yawning? How many bbs can you lose in one session before your wide awake? 100+ And an overall downswing?

It depends on your edge, how volatile the game is, and how long a session you tend to play.

If your edge is small, your overall swings are going to be big. When people talk about 1BB/HR, they're talking about the best player and often a full-time pro or a skilled amateur who adds in great game selection. Someone with a 0.25BB/HR edge is going to have graph that has downswings that are sickening -- think 1000+ BB downers. A person with a 1% RoR, a 12BB/HR SD, and a 1BB/HR WR has about a 330BB BR required. Drop his WR to 0.25BB/HR and his BR goes to 1325BB.

In the short term, edge doesn't matter that much. In a 5 hour session, our 1BB/HR guy is only expected to be a stack ahead of a breakeven player. How many experts do you hear talking about being down 3+ racks at some point? All of them?

In the end, session results are a trap. Become focused on them and risk giving up a lot of what makes you a winning player. You're supposed to be making the best play you know how because it is correct and not because it did or didn't work out the last 3 times. For live swings, you should ask people who play a lot more sessions than I do. However, I'd guess that 50-100BB losses are a case of when not if, unless you are stop-lossing. The game described in the OP is quite wild, so the fact that it is often $200 to see a flop in a kill pot is going to make your fluctuations big.

This game can't be beat by ABC poker. You just have the entire setup the other way around.
No, you don't have to tighten up in game such this. What you've got to do is to adjust and eliminate some 10 or more hands and add some. One of the hands you add is T9s and many more. In a game such this position doesn't matter because you are not going by position but by other parameters. Position has very little value in games like this after you made the proper adjustment. Of course you need to know what adjustment to make in the first place. I suspect you know that, so I don't have to continue going into details. This game is good for 2.5BB/hour or a little more. Probably 3BB/hour if you eliminate all hands that has got to be eliminated. I know this for sure because I play in such games sometimes here in Vegas. When I open my hand on the showdown and take the pot away from the ABC dude, people think they deal with a idiot maniac and they give me even more action during the night, helping me to make even more money for my paycheck. -

Yep, its all hand selection.

Yeah, noone is good enough to collude there, sorry but Munga is right. On to your question, i''d say to continue with ABC unless you have some special skills. If you do then you can open up a little lighter, but if you don't have a feel for the game then do not. Bottom line, in the game like this you have to correctly evaluate opening ranges of your opponents according to dynamic of the this present second.If you don't think you up to it, even a little mistake will hurt your bottom line to a huge minus.

on collusion - i think they want to take money from each other
but they do build up pots