I was going to say, collusion at Foxwoods? Unlikely. The good players are there to make money for themselves, and the bad players are rich guys who don't care about dumping 4 racks on Saturdays. Of course I speak (mostly) from second hand accounts.

Im a semi reg in the 20 game at foxwoods (put in about a session a week, know most regs by name) and I can say that Ive never seen anything that looked like collusion

Wouldn't it be hard for Foxwoods regulars to collude in Colorado? Seems like a long drive.

yes collusion

I know this is a somewhat old thread, but I'm just starting to play this game a little more regularly, maybe 2-3x/mo. And the one thing I know for sure is 1) it's still crazy as ever and 2) the swings are heart-attack inducing...
So some questions:

"Position has very little value in games like this after you made the proper adjustment. Of course you need to know what adjustment to make in the first place. I suspect you know that, so I don't have to continue going into details." what do you mean by this always_tilting? Not trolling, a sincere question.

"If most pots are 4+ dudes multiway and if the action is big preflop and on the flop, this is a gold mine". Also this?

I agree this game can't be beat playing ABC poker, but I also haven't seen skill win out either. I know my exposure here is limited - probably a total of 15 sessions and also a bunch of time railing. I haven't really seen position as a big advantage, in contrast to a NL game. If the villain is drawing to the river, it doesn't matter whether he's first to act or not, he's gonna check call 30/60/60 everytime. And yes it's a goldmine when four people cap it at $120 PF, but it really sucks when your KK or AA get cracked every time...

Is the answer as simple as sample size? In the long run AA are more likely to win so just put on your big boy pants and hold on? Or do you play more suited connectors and just hope to hit the flop hard?

Again very limited exposure, but my 78 or A4 suited seem to win much more than AK or even KK in this game.
DougL or stumbras - you guys still playing this game? What's been your experience as of late?

And I'm still a newb, so be gentle...

Skilled players beat this game and unskilled ones lose, in the long run. The further the game diverges from the games described in your favorite book/video, the more you'll need to adjust the standard plays you memorize from said book/vid.

Position matters less in a LHE game than NL, because in LHE you sometimes get an extra or get to save a bet and in NL the thing saved/lost can be most of a buyin. Big bet games punish lack of position more. Also draw games have a doubled effect because you get to see both bets and draws -- think about 27TD where position is huge. Still those bets matter on your WR. I'd attribute this feeling you have to inexperience with limit games and maybe some runbad or confirmation bias.

You're playing like them if you pass on raising good hands that never win and play a large number of speculative hands, passively. Some of this seems like NL thinking creeping in. You cold-call in position hoping to get huge implied odds from your deep stacks -- in LHE your edges come more thinly, you don't get these implied odds, and this plan works less often.

Haven't been up for a couple months. Bellatrix and I went up when she was in town, the game seemed much calmer. A few better players replaced some of the familiar faces. I'd say it is still a decent 30 game, but not off-the-hook good.

As a strong winning player, I'd still want a $30K+ roll if I had to play this game over the long run. That's a lot of swong.

Here's the thing, a few people are making a living out of this game. There are certainly decent pros who you're playing against most of the time. If there are 2-4 of them in the game, and you don't have the skills to be a good pro, your WR isn't as high as it might seem it would be. Take that vs. a small stakes game where you are in the top 2 of skill. Add in losing players who are willing to fight for pots, and I'd never be surprised that even a decent player would struggle to move up to this game. Be patient.

When you say that you haven't seen skill win out, I worry. It could be a sign that you're not recognizing the good players actions where they're doing good things. It could also be that it has been a luck-fest every time you sit. In that game, let's say it is all luck all around except that you make or save an extra bet an hour over everyone else. You know to thin bet one river an hour or something. That's $70+/hour, and likely more than anyone makes in that game. Think about it. Your entire edge from making one big street decision better than the field, every hour.

There was a time in my poker career being up or down 25 BB was a lot, these days I go up and down 25/30 BBs in an hour, let alone a session.

The bigger the game, the tougher more aggressive the lineup the bigger the swings.

If I cash out less than +/- 25 BBs in a game and someone asks how I did, I tell them I broke even.

A thin river v-bet by definition will not be worth anything close to $70 in EV. /nitpicking

That's a real wall of text to quote to make that point.

Thanks DougL. I appreciate your thoughts. This quoted part of your reply struck a chord with me. I think I've been doing this a lot and it's cost me. During my last session I felt I was playing pretty well and was up about $1k. I won a nice sized pot with A10o from the button, flopping trip tens, betting all the way to the river. But I guess I got too loose after that, and I had this run of suited connectors over the next hour that just depleted all my profit. I would flop a flush draw or OESD, call a couple of bets or try a check raise or bet out trying to rep a bigger hand and just bricked everything. Next thing I know my profit is poof...it's easy to look back in hindsight and see my NL thinking clouding my judgement. I still find it hard not to chase that draw when in my head "it's just one more bet". I think I can fix this leak pretty easy and then force myself to sit on my hands and be patient...

Just to give you an idea Of what type of swing are possible, losing 10k in a day is possible, difficult but possible wjth the 50-100 kill.

It could have been correct to play every suited connector you did. If 5 people limp in front of you, all of them could have been good. You need to play every hand correctly, every time. It seems like the fact that the hands didn't work out is the reason you are unhappy you played them -- that's just variance.

It is just one more bet, and it is often correct to chase draws. You can't price someone out of a draw in LHE, and thus, you can't be priced out. The mistake would be playing a hand that wasn't correct to call PF, getting thinly priced in to a draw, getting punished for 3 streets, and then hitting a really marginal (say 3rd pair) hand that you now have to call on the river because the pot is big. It could be playing dominated hands vs. passive raisers.

Limit is more of a drawing game and more of a value betting game than NL. the 30 game you're playing has spots of LAG play, so nitting it up and waiting to hit flops hard is likely to just bleed money. You just need to play correctly in every spot. Even a soft mid/high stakes game isn't easy to play. As Jon said, you could easily lose $5k-$10k in a bad day. Thus, there is enough profit to attract decent players.

I work 60+ at my business thus not that active anymore. Now I just have fun at 2-5 once a week (still decent games). Once or twice a month I play 30-60 with small stack like 600$ have small profit in a last year but could be just variance. I usually play just "must move" game because it is so much easier. I think the game changed a lot in a last couple years and it is so much harder to beat without full-time dedication, skill and good roll.

The Asians in Blackhawk Colorado are all friends or family... this is collusion game .. a ram and jam game with you and your Aces goin up against wyn, and his 3 cousins with any 2 cards. They used to do this across the street when 5-5$ was the big game and now they jam up the 30-60 1/2 killl.. wondering how to play against this is simple: FIND ANOTHER GAME, where the staff will call them on collusion. You are better of playing the 2-5 100$ spread ..! There was a ol lady I there they called momma she was there banker and juiced em. Horrible limit game up there. Run 🏃🏿*♀️

The only thing to watch for is if they’re facing people with multiple bets on big streets where their hands don’t get shown down (or the hands are suspiciously weak). Preflop action is not really an area where collusion is likely to be effective (unless they knew each others exact hole cards) and jamming money in pre like that will only be to your benefit.

You should stove aces against 4-5 players playing any two cards. You’ll find your aces doing quite well in what stands to be a huge pot. I would take that bet any day. Sure it’s higher variance than 3betting a reg on a reggy table and getting heads up, but if you’re not there to gamble against aggro donks then limit poker isn’t for you.

I have played this game avg 13 hrs per week for the last 3 years and have seen no pattern of colllusion. Plenty of preflop gambling, but as others have said (and results indicate) that makes for a good, but high variance game.