I’ve been considering it since 2016 when I first started playing 20/40 in Washington. I had played all my volume at Palace and Fortune had just opened and I was planning to be a non-chopper in the 20/40 game and the first time I sat down there were multiple Palace regs in the game so I decided to still chop and have done so ever since. I’ve always wished that never happened, especially since none of them play there anymore.



However, the real breaking point for me happened last month. I walked in to see a 4-handed game and made it clear that I’m playing all hands 6-handed. This is standard for me. I find it hard to stomach playing in a 6-handed game where people want to chop. It gets weird when there are seven stacks and one player is walking and the game is temporarily 6-handed. I don’t care too much about playing or not playing when someone is temporarily gone. On the other hand, there are 7-handed games where someone always seems to be walking and the game is basically always 6-handed. I think it gets murky in spots like this and not everyone views the situation the same way I do. Anyways, that 5-handed game eventually fills up and many hours later I’m having one of my all-time worst sessions (not completely irrelevant imo). We are 8-handed and I’m in the small blind, but two players are walking. I must admit I’m kind of reeling in this moment so I’m not alert and when it folds to me, I just snap muck my hand without looking and take back my blind and the player in the big blind sits there with his cards and says, “you said you play 6-handed” and made me give him the $10. Well, I certainly didn’t have an argument for that, so I gave it to him. It’s probably also worth noting that me and this dude hate each other. I don’t think any other player would do this to me. He’s a convicted sex trafficker on top of being an absolute prick and everyone else mostly treats him like he’s just another one of the guys. I’ve never pretended to like him and I don’t act like I think he’s good people. I’m not aggressive about my distaste but I don’t give him a pass like everyone else seems to.



One might say this problem could be solved because it’s only one person and I can just avoid him, but he’s one of the biggest regulars in the game and I purposefully sit on his right as frequently as I can because a) he’s a nit, b) he’s predictable, and c) he constantly telegraphs his preflop decisions or folds out of turn out of disrespect towards me and no one ever checks him on it.



Also, there are times (though infrequent) when the games get extra tight and there seem to be 3-4 chops an orbit. I hate chopping in games like that. And mostly, I just like playing. I don’t care about the friendly or cutthroat side of things. I’ve always been cutthroat. That doesn’t mean I can’t be friendly and well liked. The only question I care about is, “is it possible to be profitable in BvB spots with an $8 drop, or is it clearly unprofitable?” Does anyone have a definitive answer to THAT question?

You should try to get a rake reduction if you are constantly playing 4 handed games, or better yet, convince them to go to time.

No, nobody has a definitive answer to that question because it depends on the quality of your games.

Rake is auto-reduced. Can’t imagine they would ever go time game. The games are not often super short. There is almost always one full, steady game during the hours I typically play. And usually once the game gets open seats a certain crowd of players will just quit and try and break the game.

The games are very good. I think most of the top regs are not very strong. I guess a better question would be, “how hard would it be to show a profit in BvB situations with an $8 drop?” assuming the player pool is pretty weak overall and you should be one of the better players and play exploitively.

I play in the same game. As I said, I think it would make sense to play in position when you already have a BB invested, but not OOP from the small blind. So I would recommend you do what I do, be willing to chop but try to sit to the left of a non-chopper and definitely not to the right of one.

Personality I have always chopped 6 or more and played 5 or less, in time or raked games. That rule seems the most common and I've never taken much flak about it.

If this is true, that means you think it is possible to profit in this dynamic. Otherwise the definitive answer would be no, correct?

I did some rough pen and paper estimates over 10 years ago and concluded that it was possible to beat the rake against bad regs BvB at Commerce 40/80, but not at 20/40. I'm not doing the math again though because I don't play either game, I don't care, and I don't want to deal with the borderline trolls who are here to nitpick and criticize rather than contribute.

I think it’s possible but probably shows like a few dollars profit for a situation that shouldn’t be coming up that much anyway if you’re game selecting.

Maybe if you’re a pro it’s worth it but not for me.

When I last considered playing bvb in live raked 20/40, it wasn't clear that $4 max from a $240 pot was beatable in a soft pool. I chopped for a while, played for a lot longer, and went back to chopping as the pool shrunk and got relatively tougher. I don't remember a difference in results, just that I guessed the rake must be getting tougher to beat. There wasn't a consistent choice across the players I considered good. I always played 5 or less because rake was automatically halved at that point. Ldo, my sample sizes are too small and there's probably more value to be had playing bvb in the solver era.

$8 regardless of pot size seems like a problem if you're going to average as many hands OOP as IP.

After the incident I described above, I decided to be a non-chopper starting January 1st. I really don’t know if it’s a financially sound decision. I might be underestimating the rake. I started tracking BvB results two sessions ago and going forward I’m gong to track BB and SB separately. TBD.

I don't understand why you would stop chopping based on the incident mentioned, if you mean the one where you missed that it was 6 handed and mucked without looking at your hand. Seems like a fluke and a mistake you're not likely to make often.

Tracking results for a single position is going to take a lot more concentration than noticing that it's shorthanded, and would take several years to be statistically significant.

a) because I would rather play than chop. Playing is more fun than not playing.

b) because it gets tiresome explaining that I play six-handed, but I’ll chop when it’s temporarily 6-handed in a full game, etc.

c) my gut tells me that I will profit in BvB situations in these games, even with the cost of playing being $8 per hand. I could certainly be wrong. I’m okay finding out the hard way.

d) the incident was just a springboard / last straw for pushing me to pull the trigger on something I’ve been itching to do for 7+ years now.

It is not hard to track results from the blinds in BvB hands. It takes like 5 seconds after a hand to put a result in my notes. I’m not tracking every hand from these positions - just the BvB ones, and only those that i previously would have chopped (so none when only six seats are filled).

Not sure if I get this right because I’m not a live player but .
To win 10$ from the SB , u are ready to risk your 20$BB plus 8$ ?
Is there rake on top of that ?

Not sure exactly what you are asking, but if you are the small blind, you are risking $30 to win $30 if you raise preflop. If you don’t consider the small blind as belonging to the current pot because you normally chop then I guess you could see it as risking $40 to win $20. When they defend and we cbet we are risking $20 to win $72 ($8 comes out of the pot when dealer brings a flop).

Ok but u can be in the BB spot too ?
Are u suggesting you are not chopping in SB but u would in BB ?

No I’m playing from BB obv. If SB folds you just win the $10. I guess I just didn’t understand your hand example. If SB limps and we raise, we are risking $20 to win $40. If they call and check flop and we bet, we are risking $20 to win $72. $8 only comes out of the pot if there is a flop.

Ok i thought chopping was like decided before u saw your hand ?
So u can chopped or not depending what hand u have .
I thought u were asking as a general strategy to always chopping or not .

I think MC is asking an important question, if not quite directly worded. DK is the rake in your 20/40 all taken on the flop, no money dropped for winning the blinds preflop?

I’ve answered that question multiple times lol.

Rake is only taken if we see a flop.

Am I being trolled?

I’m not trolling , I just played twice live in my life .
So a flop happens now u pay 8$ minimum .
But let’s say more bet happens on turn and river afterwards ?
Is it 8$ total regardless turn and river action or it’s 8$ on flop plus some rake from pot getting bigger on turn and river from further betting posflop ?

Why wouldn't you track hands in BvB spots when you're short handed? It will build a larger sample much faster, can you can just normalize the results by adding phantom rake up to $8. So, if the rake was $6 and you won $160, record it as $158.

I suppose some people play differently, for better or worse, when the game is short, so your results short-handed might not be reflective of your results in full-handed BvB spots. But I think the benefit of building a larger sample will outweigh whatever differences there may be.

A - ok, but do you still think it's fun if you're likely upsetting some of the fun players?

B - you don't need to make it that complicated. No need to have an exception for walkers. I don't chop 5 or less, doesn't matter if it's temporary. This is also much more common than 6, so doesn't need explaining.

C - you will never find out if it's profitable, the sample size will be extremely low and depend greatly on who the other player is.

D - you seem to think the other player did something wrong in that incident. He may be a douchebag, but you made the mistake not him (based on your explanation).

If the $8 is taken on the flop, no more is taken later in the hand.

We are playing the biggest game in the room. Plenty of people don’t chop. No one cares. If they do care, they get over it. I don’t care if someone gets upset for a brief moment. It will be fine.

If you actually read what I wrote you will know I knew it was my own fault and I didn’t put up a fight about it. I knew he was in the right. Doesn’t mean I like giving some scumbag $10 because he’s being petty. I would normally chop in that situation. It has little to do with me paying attention or not. But sure, technically, he’s in the right. I don’t think many other players would have done that. And now I don’t have to worry about it.