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Old 05-02-2021, 12:12 AM   #51
stinkypete
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Re: 2021 NC/LC

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Originally Posted by Unguarded View Post
The key word is "should". But too many good poker players are masters of lighting money on fire, irresponsible, immature, addicts, financially incompetent, etc.
True for sure, but part of being "any good" as a poker pro is not being an idiot with your money
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Old 05-03-2021, 03:53 AM   #52
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Re: 2021 NC/LC

Hey, now! By that definition, I am not very good at poker lol.
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Old 05-03-2021, 09:22 AM   #53
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Re: 2021 NC/LC

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I agree that if you started taking poker seriously in 2003 and were a good player, you should already be able to retire if you manage your money decently. The key word is "should". But too many good poker players are masters of lighting money on fire, irresponsible, immature, addicts, financially incompetent, etc. After all, look at all the celebrity multi-millionaires who go broke outside of poker.

And yes, it was quite possible to move from play money to 10/20 LHE online within a year without ever depositing if you had talent and studied back then. There were lots of sites where you could swap your Stars play money for cash.

Nowadays, the ladder to 40/80+ LHE is all screwed up.
So much this.

I have a friend who started around that time who was literally terrible at poker. He borrowed my copy of Lee Jones and taped the starting hand chart to the side of his monitor. For those who don't know that book, it was written to help people who knew nothing about poker... to lose slowly in a soft live game. Given the power of folding, in a few weeks, he's winning 1/2. Then 2/4, and then up to 10/20 on Paradise poker. He was cashing out $ to buy such necessities as fancy brakes and a carbon fiber hood for his Porsche. Good times. A starting hand chart and a beginner's book and he's regularly cashing out. That was "studying" circa 2002.
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True for sure, but part of being "any good" as a poker pro is not being an idiot with your money
Totally get the sentiment, but tons of people have made money from poker that couldn't hang on to it. Some of them must have really enjoyed the ride. Who's to say that's wrong? Heck, I know several people who became IT professionals during the internet boom. They became PC and Unix admins during a time when companies would train anybody who seemed a little tech-y. When that bust happened, those people got laid off and many (most?) never got back into high paying tech jobs. They didn't have degrees. Those folks got used to high salaries and good benefits, so cars with loans and mortgages did them in. Were they fake IT pros?

Last edited by DougL; 05-03-2021 at 09:30 AM.
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Old 05-03-2021, 05:46 PM   #54
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Re: 2021 NC/LC

My little brother has started to get into poker after dabbling just a bit ~15 years ago. He has access to 4/8 and 8/16 games. What book would you recommend he order to sharpen up at live LHE?
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Old 05-03-2021, 07:45 PM   #55
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Re: 2021 NC/LC

So nobody back in the boom was good but didn't win millions for reasons other than being a total degen? I don't know, like having college tuitions to pay, or dependents to support, that prevented them from laddering up instead of using their winnings? I totally get that the opportunity was there for any reasonably intelligent person who was willing and able to drop everything and just play poker, but it seems pretty ridiculous to say that if you didn't make millions you were either a degen or bad. Some people just had different priorities.
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Old 05-04-2021, 01:54 AM   #56
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Re: 2021 NC/LC

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Originally Posted by Bighurt52235 View Post
My little brother has started to get into poker after dabbling just a bit ~15 years ago. He has access to 4/8 and 8/16 games. What book would you recommend he order to sharpen up at live LHE?
Find Lee Jones Pre-Flop Chart like it's 2002 and profit.
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Old 05-04-2021, 02:45 AM   #57
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Re: 2021 NC/LC

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Originally Posted by Bighurt52235 View Post
My little brother has started to get into poker after dabbling just a bit ~15 years ago. He has access to 4/8 and 8/16 games. What book would you recommend he order to sharpen up at live LHE?
Small-Stakes Hold'em by Ed Miller is just about the best there is.
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Old 05-04-2021, 05:57 AM   #58
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Re: 2021 NC/LC

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So nobody back in the boom was good but didn't win millions for reasons other than being a total degen? I don't know, like having college tuitions to pay, or dependents to support, that prevented them from laddering up instead of using their winnings? I totally get that the opportunity was there for any reasonably intelligent person who was willing and able to drop everything and just play poker, but it seems pretty ridiculous to say that if you didn't make millions you were either a degen or bad. Some people just had different priorities.
When I say "probably have enough to retire" that doesn't mean literally every single person with no exceptions.

Y'all are crazy.
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Old 05-04-2021, 05:58 AM   #59
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Re: 2021 NC/LC

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Small-Stakes Hold'em by Ed Miller is just about the best there is.
It's by far the best, and likely will always be the best.
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Old 05-04-2021, 10:56 AM   #60
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Re: 2021 NC/LC

For much the same reasons as John Fox's Play Poker, Quit Work, Sleep Till Noon! will likely always be the best book out there about five-card draw.
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Old 05-04-2021, 12:00 PM   #61
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Re: 2021 NC/LC

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So nobody back in the boom was good but didn't win millions for reasons other than being a total degen? I don't know, like having college tuitions to pay, or dependents to support, that prevented them from laddering up instead of using their winnings? I totally get that the opportunity was there for any reasonably intelligent person who was willing and able to drop everything and just play poker, but it seems pretty ridiculous to say that if you didn't make millions you were either a degen or bad. Some people just had different priorities.
Yea agree. I was hesitant to use my winnings to pay off student debt , everyone around me told me to pay them off . now that I don’t play poker as my main income source it was a great decision in hind sight . And Sure it prevented me from running up the stars ladder but it saved me thousands in interest .
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Old 05-04-2021, 01:26 PM   #62
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Re: 2021 NC/LC

Do you understand how much money you need to retire if you are in your early 30s?

Not sure I would be comfortable retiring at that age unless I had $10M banked.
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Old 05-04-2021, 03:17 PM   #63
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Re: 2021 NC/LC

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Originally Posted by AlanBostick View Post
Small-Stakes Hold'em by Ed Miller is just about the best there is.
Thanks! I wasn't sure if something newer had been written.
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Old 05-04-2021, 08:51 PM   #64
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Re: 2021 NC/LC

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Thanks! I wasn't sure if something newer had been written.
That book is the bible and will always be valid for 8/16 and lower. If you find a game where it's no longer particularly valid, you probably can't beat the rake anyway.
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Old 05-06-2021, 06:29 PM   #65
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Re: 2021 NC/LC

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It's by far the best, and likely will always be the best.
Word on that.
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Old 05-07-2021, 12:25 AM   #66
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Re: 2021 NC/LC

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A good chunk of the actual poker pros I know fall into the "don't need income from poker" category. If you've been around since the boom and were ever any good, you probably have enough to retire.
Not sure if trolling or just obnoxiously wrong.
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Old 05-07-2021, 05:35 AM   #67
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Re: 2021 NC/LC

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Not sure if trolling or just obnoxiously wrong.
I mean it's wrong if you don't consider them poker pros anymore, but it's absolutely true otherwise
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Old 05-07-2021, 05:01 PM   #68
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Re: 2021 NC/LC

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I mean it's wrong if you don't consider them poker pros anymore, but it's absolutely true otherwise
I don't think I know any pros (or of any pros) who "retired" from poker, meaning they made enough money from poker that they can now go do what they truly want instead of having to "work".
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Old 05-07-2021, 05:30 PM   #69
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Re: 2021 NC/LC

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I don't think I know any pros (or of any pros) who "retired" from poker, meaning they made enough money from poker that they can now go do what they truly want instead of having to "work".
There's a difference between having an unlimited budget and having enough to retire
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Old 05-08-2021, 09:22 PM   #70
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Re: 2021 NC/LC

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There's a difference between having an unlimited budget and having enough to retire
And like… nobody has enough to retire. you’re nuts. unless you mean enough to camp in the woods the rest of your life?
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Old 05-08-2021, 10:25 PM   #71
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Re: 2021 NC/LC

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And like… nobody has enough to retire. you’re nuts. unless you mean enough to camp in the woods the rest of your life?
no i mean like enough to have a nice house in minnesota and live an upper middle class life
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Old 05-09-2021, 01:08 AM   #72
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Re: 2021 NC/LC

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no i mean like enough to have a nice house in minnesota and live an upper middle class life
no minnesotans i know fit this description. everyone is still grinding.
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Old 05-09-2021, 02:43 AM   #73
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Re: 2021 NC/LC

you either have an unrealistic idea of how much money it takes to meet that description or you think your friends are a lot poorer than they are

if you invested $60k in 2005/6/7 during the boom and $30k every year since into index funds, you'd be right around the cutoff. i don't see why anyone would consider that unrealistic for a full time grinder. and that's ignoring the fact that tons of grinders have beaten market returns by many multiples because they've had irresponsibly large investments in crypto or tesla or whatever.
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Old 05-09-2021, 09:29 AM   #74
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Re: 2021 NC/LC

Are we talking single or married w kids. Cause it cost a ton for kids extra activity/education. I barely make enough to survive.
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Old 05-09-2021, 10:34 AM   #75
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Re: 2021 NC/LC

Stinkypete’s bar for retirement is a few hundred k in retirement accounts living single in a studio apartment in MN.
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