Looks like this will be my last year playing full time lhe. There just not enough game online. Could move family to cali to grind live part time but that doesn't sound very efficient with time. Logical step would be to switch to Nl to or Plo. Plo looks like rake trap and regs are just passing around variance. Leaning toward nl found the game very similar anyway probably a lot easier w bigger +ev w every decision point. I am considering making vids or some sort of coaching/staking for lhe.

Been a long time since I was semi-proing limit online and live, but got back into rec play and moved to NL for better games and better social atmosphere (wasn't rolled for 20/40 and 8/16 socially is barely better than the 4/8 degen alley).

I'll probably get some sass given this is the limit forum... But the edge in low stakes NL is so crazy high compared to small stakes limit. The variance much lower. If you want to switch gears to be tighter to manage your tilt you still just get paid a lot because play is so loose. Bluff 3-betting TAGfish and LAGs is so much damn fun. You can find players that just ATMs when you cbet at them: limp call pre, fit/fold post. Limit you can only pick actions, NL you can pick actions and sizes. Fish can make way more mistakes now that they have two dimensions to screw up in.

I'm 120 hours in to playing NL more seriously with only a marginal winrate (maybe a little run hot but last two sessions where down two buys up two buys) and it's more fun. You can more aggressively exploit mistakes and see it pay off with high EV and low variance.

Limit Holdem is my first poker love. But it got to be autopilot white knuckle through the variance. NL I have to watch the table more closely and get to be more creative with identifying spots to abuse people's leaks. I actually get adrenaline hits in NL, limit I just zone out.

To summarize: I'll play some limit in the future for fun, but from what I've learned now I think playing a significant amount of limit as a pro just seems masochistic when NL can be so profitable and lower variance.

Pros have been saying all this for 10 years.

except this:
what...IME social atmosphere is much better in limit games.


DonJuan, I'm not the first person to tell you that you could probably spend a tenth as much time studying NLHE and make more money than LHE. But I get it, you like limit and have spent a lot of time mastering it. Sucks to throw that all away.

Depends on the limit, doesn't it?

Yup. 20/40 tended to be much better but I wasn't rolled for it anymore. 1/3 is bottom in NL stakes but much more socially tolerable than 8/16.

Congratulations DonJuan!

Hopefully see you in California in December

*OT Info about Personal Experience*

• I've had Poker be part time supplemental income since Black Friday.

• HUHU and 6max or less is phenomenal live especially during 2am - 6am @ Commerce or any casinos that spread LHE

• Never got into PLO or NL seriously but hear PLO live at casinos, online, or private games are epic

• Would recommend having at least 3 source of income and having poker as one & your knowledge in Finance you appeared to have gained, think 4-5 isn't unrealistic especially if you start coaching / creating videos / create or join existing training sites
  

Adding to the chorus:

Poker is everywhere (in the United States), and "poker" means no-limit hold'em.

Low-stakes no-limit is virtually a guaranteed money maker for people who know the real basics, i.e. the trick is to isolate someone with a weaker range than yours preflop, and then force them to fold after the flop when they have missed. The big money is catching punts, but the small money is taking down pots on the flop, and the small money adds up.

Rake is high and getting higher, and at the same time the very lowest stakes for NLHE are not the rake traps that a limit hold'em specialist might think that they are. But if you know what you are doing, you can make more money in bigger games. 2-5 is the sweet spot nationwide. Some markets have higher games occasionally, and a handful of markets (Los Angeles, the Bay Area, Las Vegas, and some of the newer East Coast casino markets) have regular or even round-the-clock 5-10 games.

All that said, the NLHE market is becoming mature. The boom is long since over. Pot-limit Omaha (and its variants, PLO8, Big O, and so forth) are attracting gamblers because the swings are bigger and preflop edges are smaller than in NLHE, and a bingo players can hit their bingos more often. The state of PLO knowledge in the overall player pools is ten to twenty years behind that of NLHE player pools. There is more room for growth for a determined and studious poker player in PLO right now than there is in NLHE -- if, that is, PLO is available in your market.

Omaha has been "the game of the future" for as long as I have been playing cardroom poker, that is to say, more than twenty years. But over the past year or so PLO has been looking to me like the game of the immediate future.

Another big area of opportunity for higher stakes players in the larger poker markets is the area of mixed games. The range of games in the mix may seem intimidating to someone whose idea of a mix is OE and very occasionally having triple-draw 2-7 thrown in (Razzdugi?? Drawmaha???) but the games are learnable, and if you can learn them the games can be quite good. Most of the games in the mix are some sort of split-pot games, and the key to beating split-pot games is: play to scoop.

So much this.

I went to the casino with some NL home game buds. Our home game is full of crazy LAGs but these guys are from the TAG minority. The looser TAG was getting out of position and calling down all the time so I gave him the "bread and butter" speech: isolate in position, cbet flop, take down small pot. In our home game he crushes by calling down with tpnk though because of how many bad hyper LAGs there are.

The NL small pots tend to not be raked as heavily as the limit pots because they are smaller, but you can pick up a lot more of them. You can tell who's playing the bread and butter game well because they'll amass a stack of $1 chips from the blinds.

Limit rake at low stakes is brutal because the pots gets just big enough to hit rake cap often and those pots are multiway so we're paying into pots just big enough to get full raked to win them only a little more often than opponents. In NL the fish will give you more than your fair share of low raked small pots and a few times a session get into big heads up pots as big dogs so the rake is not taking as much relative bite out of your EV.

I am drunk but super tilting every time I sit and play I get btn at least once every single ****.ing day. It super insane you guy give out free advice but the same time steal at any given chance constantly when it Anon. Pls prove me wrong pls play me at head up. I am waiting for a challenge.

Sorry to hear DonJuan T_T

There really isn't a way to counter act BTN hit and runners unless you can get site to get them banned and/or reimburse.

Regardless hopefully it won't happen in future.

Let me know if you can make it to California Commerce in December since I owe you at least a drink based on your phenomenal recommendation(s) on LHE ^_^

I mean I understand the regs logic. Lose after xx hands and leave "well he won so it ok to not give him btn". Win after 3 hands and leave "I got btn two night ago I can't give him btn it not fair to me." How about you not be a scummy human being and not steal. Also I pm a bunch of regs that plays bodog. Apparently it not them who does this but I am curious after two years playing a bunch of head up the only time I get to end the match playing btn and they leave is after I complain. Probably less than 10 time though. I am every thankful for the charity.

Sorry for the really dumb questions. But someone has to end with the button and someone has to choose when to get up. Is the issue that people start with it and will then get up after playing last hand with it? How many hands until that's not bad form? Do you always remember who started with the button?

reg sit empty table they always start w btn. Some regs think as long as they play more than xx hands they can leave on btn if they want. Imagine two player just started playing head up and for some reason the BB player always sit out after playing BB and his btn but then sit back in again and new game start. After 51 hands the player that begin with btn decided he want to quit do you see that this scenario and playing straight 51 hand is the same and that btn would be stealing. It been common courtesy no matter how many hands you play if you start with btn you let the other person end with btn.

DonJuan;,

Maybe you can contact PokerStars or PartyPoker rep who posts occasionally on 2+2 whether possible to implement new polishy?

Alternatively you can try and ask if you can be brand ambassador for either.

Certain will be close to impossible on bodog. Someone indicated there used to be props on bodog fyi DonJuan if you can contact bodog support whether that's still available.

The more I play lhe the more I feel like it related compare to bond/fix income investor. Each hands has a coupon that you can figure out with monker. Playing Nl is like investing in stock while technically you can figure out the coupon for each hand there a lot more way to max. it value with bet sizing. Plo is like day trader everyone think they have an edge but in reality the rake/tax/fee trap and variance makes it extremely tough to win long term. Taking it further with lhe there a lot of edge to be found in BB defend vs opening kind of like Junk bond while everyone is over valuing AAA bond Btn,Co etc opening lighter. Your job in BB is to lose less than -.5 like figuring the lose rate of an junk bond. It a lot easier to go from -.5 to less than that but it a lot harder to go from -ev to +0 like over value AAA bond when everyone is bidding higher and higher aka opening lighter.

This makes a lot of sense. meta strategy edges are arbitraged away so you gotta find the best least exploited edge.

Going to LA for a couple days. Not interested in dealing with the current state of mixed games so I'll be playing 40/80 limit holdem at the Bike. Feel free to say hi if you're around. Getting in tonight and playing a short session. May play tomorrow as well depending on stuff.

Best update of year in my opinion.

Especially when update received you jumped from 40/80 to 100/100/200 NLH game

Was that before or after the 55/10/110 game

Wrong forum I know but any advice appreciated.

I've been tapped to help organize charity poker tournament for my company (after total incompetence by original planner, shoot me). We will have 20-25 entrants (of varying skill levels, mostly novice), rebuys the first hour (maybe 45 mins), and time limit of 3.5 hours for the whole event (luckily first hour is open bar).

Any thoughts to structure (BBs in starting stack, minute levels, etc)? Any input appreciated. Trying to balance getting some rebuys (build pot for charity) and playability.

My thoughts:
50BB starting stack
1. 0.5/1 (30 mins)
2. 1/2 (30 mins)
30BB Add On
3. 2/4 (20 mins)
4. 3/6
5. 4/8
6. 5/10
7. 6/12
8. 7.5/15

Other levels as needed.

Was hoping to miraculously get a seat but didn't expect to. Was still cool to watch a friend in the game do well. Had an old friend from San Diego that was planning to play 40 at Bike Friday and I had to put some chips in my box at HG so decided it was worth the trip anyway. Ended up playing way too long Thursday in a variety of games. Left after lunch Friday because my buddy wasn't gonna be able to make it to the Bike and there was a game worth playing in San Diego.

I just randomly thought of comparing this example. Suppose you in a golf pro-amateurs tourney. Both side get to pick pros and amateurs. Both pick an XX numbers of best available first and then they ask you it now your choice to either keep picking players available to your team or if you want to let the players you have play extra round vs other team that must pick more. I am always confuse why other would choose to pick more hands to play when they see other player play bad. I guess you could calculate at certain point the pro would get tired by having too few but there must be a point where putting in amateurs on your team just drag your average down.

Golf scores being lowest is better muddies this a bit. That plus "let the better players play multiple rounds" is vague. How about:

It's like a home run derby. A home run is a positive point. A strike out is a negative point. Each batter you draft can only have one at bat out of 100. You can choose to forfeit an at bat for 0 points won or lost, so if you only have 50 batters you have to forfeit 50 at bats before anyone can go up to the plate again (in poker, you only get good hands so frequently). Now there are only 100 players you can draft. AA, KK etc almost always hit a home run so they are positive EV. 72o, 83o etc almost always strike out so they are negative EV. You want to maximize your EV rate not the average EV (otherwise, ignoring Shania, you'd just nit it up). So draft until you get to player 40 or so who's .000001 EV then player 41 is -.000001.

Now suppose the pitcher is really bad. He just lobs the ball right in the sweet spot nice and slow. The worse batters can actually hit the home run more often now. The EV gradient has shifted up and now player 50 is positive EV but 51 isn't. You'd be maxing your EV rate is you draft those players for the times the pitcher is bad, but benching them when he's good.

"(in poker, you only get good hands so frequently)" Beside BB/Sb which I argue should be defend more than what pop tendency is doing, other position folding ev would be 0. Which in the simplest term you don't get money taken away by folding. So now the pro can get to play "more" instead of putting in a average player.

Actually I think I know what you meant when you say that. The problem isn't you not getting enough hands frequently it that is playing live you get 35 hands per hour vs 120 hand online(what i am getting this year). But if we were to compare being dealt 100 hands of online vs live 100 hands there no difference. Of course there an illusion that you being hand dead in a course of a session.