Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Mid-High Stakes Limit Discussions of mid-high stakes limit Texas Hold'em

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-06-2019, 01:02 PM   #1
mongidig
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,828
Play along.

I thought I would do this play along style since there are several decision points in this hand. I'll chime in later with my thoughts.

The CO is a good lag/tag. He 3 bets a bit too wide given my range(maybe top 13%) but plays well post. He doesn't always bet turn but I'm not sure exactly what this range is. He probably sees me as Taggy to slightly laggy. Small sample size.

It's folded to me in the LJ(3 off button). I have QhJc..This would be a standard open for me, however, the HJ is very loose, and the button is very laggy so I think folding makes sense.......That being said, the HJ folds out of turn and I decide to open. The CO 3 bets, its folded back to me and I call.

There are loose players and lags to my right as well. It's a great game so I don't see the need to move seats. I just need to tighten up a bit and play appropriately pre flop.

Tc3h4h....I check, he bets........Is this a peel? what is your turn plan?
mongidig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2019, 09:14 PM   #2
Smarty 2.0
adept
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,054
Re: Play along.

Seems like a standard peel getting 8.5 to 1 with 2 overs and 3 to a straight closing the action.
Smarty 2.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2019, 09:18 PM   #3
Smudger2408
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 366
Re: Play along.

Does he respect your range?

Any chance that Check raise lead turn blank wins?

If fancy play syndrome won't work, think it is fold and move to the next one.

If called, I'm leading any Q-J-8-A and folding to a raise, leading any K-9, calling if raised and betting river with straight and calling down with Q-J.
Smudger2408 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2019, 09:45 PM   #4
DougL
Too helpful for this post
 
DougL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 21,620
Re: Play along.

Quote:
If fancy play syndrome won't work, think it is fold and move to the next one.
This fold is a pretty big mistake in a 3 bet pot. Perfect 3 straight, 2 OC, and BDFD. You have to be stickier than this is in HU pots. You're making it really profitable to bluff you if you flop this well and say "on to the next one".

I might start looking at RvR equity here in equilab, if I were trying to improve my feel playing HU in this spot. I believe that mongidig at least called in this spot. I'd also consider whether CO bets 100% of his 3 betting range or if we can start narrowing his range based on his cbet.
DougL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2019, 11:00 PM   #5
Smudger2408
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 366
Re: Play along.

Good points Doug.

Just curious, given that consensus is that we need to continue with Q-J on this flop, what hand in our range, can't be continued here?

Hero's description of himself makes me think there are not many suited connectors in his range, so, on a 3 bet pot, on this board texture are we basically taking 100% of our range to the turn?
Smudger2408 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2019, 11:18 PM   #6
NVF
adept
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Reno
Posts: 1,094
Re: Play along.

Mostly call, sometimes x/r and bet most turns except non-h A/4/3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smudger2408 View Post
Just curious, given that consensus is that we need to continue with Q-J on this flop, what hand in our range, can't be continued here?
A8-A6 no bdfd, K9 and lower no bdfd, Q8 no bdfd, 87 no bdfd
NVF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2019, 11:52 PM   #7
mongidig
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,828
Re: Play along.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougL View Post
This fold is a pretty big mistake in a 3 bet pot. Perfect 3 straight, 2 OC, and BDFD. You have to be stickier than this is in HU pots. You're making it really profitable to bluff you if you flop this well and say "on to the next one".

I might start looking at RvR equity here in equilab, if I were trying to improve my feel playing HU in this spot. I believe that mongidig at least called in this spot. I'd also consider whether CO bets 100% of his 3 betting range or if we can start narrowing his range based on his cbet.
I think he is c betting the flop 100% after a 3 bet HU.
mongidig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2019, 01:08 AM   #8
dadjoey
journeyman
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 297
Re: Play along.

Fold Pre

Reason being this spot is pretty marginal. If CO is a good lag/tag then you should get 3-bet at least 90% when CO enters and you're almost always a slight-medium dog. The problem postflop is CO has position and should have correctl c/b flop and turn percentages.

As played, peel the flop and c/r Q, J, probably 9, K heart/non heart cards. I think you'll need to c/f the rest.
dadjoey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2019, 03:34 AM   #9
JLot
centurion
 
JLot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 139
Re: Play along.

My iron friend opens QJo from the LJ at .5 frequency and 100% from the HJ. I like the open, particularly with the extra advanced fold intel. Definitely peel the flop. Our LJ opening range should include some hands with no flush/BDFD equity that can fold like Q8s, J8s, 98s, 87s, 76s. We can bluff with many flush draws and hands which have some but low equity, hands like Q9d/s or J9d/s.

On the turn we're looking for an A, K, Q, J, 9, 8 or any heart to continue. I'd be checking all turns and prefer to use an A as a check raise bluff candidate, check raising Q's and J's for value, calling with other hands that continue.

Last edited by JLot; 08-07-2019 at 03:52 AM.
JLot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2019, 10:25 AM   #10
Smudger2408
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 366
Re: Play along.

We do not have clean outs.

Overpairs, A-J, A-Q are certainly in his range.

By calling, we are saying, 1 in 8.5 times we have to hit a card on the turn that makes us good without having to put a lot more money in when we are bad.

The additional information that the CO is good post flop means he will maximize when he has us crushed and minimize his losses when we hit.

This is not a spewtard 3 bet. He three bets a little wide, but not ridiculoulsy wide.
Smudger2408 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2019, 02:17 PM   #11
holmfries
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Canterbury
Posts: 5,795
Re: Play along.

Doug’s comments seem pretty spot on. Seems like a super standard spot so far - can’t imagine folding PF or OTF. I imagine we make a pair on the turn and that is the tricky street.
holmfries is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2019, 03:31 PM   #12
DougL
Too helpful for this post
 
DougL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 21,620
Re: Play along.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dadjoey View Post
Fold Pre
We looked left, because that's our job. We got a reliable folding tell, which is why we looked. Now that we've effectively moved one seat towards the button, this hand should be played. Once the villains are laggy enough, we start to dominate them if they refuse to let us shut them out of the pot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smudger2408 View Post
We do not have clean outs.

Overpairs, A-J, A-Q are certainly in his range.
Sure, hands that beat us are in the villain's range. This is almost always the case when the villain's range is uncapped and we're drawing to non nut hands. A better way to look at this is to look at our equity, our range's equity (which could lend credibility to our future bluffs), and the equity of the villain's range. Making a list of hands that have us dead isn't that useful. We need to know how much of his complete range those hands make up. If he likes 3 betting a bunch of offsuit A's or suited connectors, the answer is different than for a nit. Do you have any thoughts on the villain's range and what that means for our dubious draws?
Quote:
By calling, we are saying, 1 in 8.5 times we have to hit a card on the turn that makes us good without having to put a lot more money in when we are bad.
There are 8 cards in the deck that give us an open ender. 6 more that give us toppest pear. Almost a quarter of the deck gives us a 1 card flush draw (some of these get double counted). Even more cards give us gutshots, with 1/4 of those including the bonus FD. We get to see a river a bunch of the time. Way more that 1 in 8.5. In a HU pot, we never have to put a lot more money in. We get to choose whether we're building a huge pot or calling down.
Quote:
This is not a spewtard 3 bet. He three bets a little wide, but not ridiculoulsy wide.
You get in to spots in LHE where you are getting a good price. You're not always winning when you improve, but the price is still good enough to take that risk. Being good players, sometimes we have to play well OOP. If you iso-raise and then over fold when 3 bet, you've created a huge potential leak in your game. Post 2005, tons of people are good in steal/re-steal spots.
Quote:
Originally Posted by holmfries View Post
Doug’s comments seem pretty spot on. Seems like a super standard spot so far - can’t imagine folding PF or OTF. I imagine we make a pair on the turn and that is the tricky street.
Thanks. Agree with your thinking and prediction on the next card. I guess the other tricky spot would be spiking the K and having to decide if we're semi-bluffing the 2nd nut FD + OESD.
DougL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2019, 04:55 PM   #13
holmfries
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Canterbury
Posts: 5,795
Re: Play along.

Also he said HJ folded put of turn which afaik is one of the more reliable folding tells.
holmfries is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2019, 05:27 PM   #14
checkraisdraw
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 291
Re: Play along.

I do think that this is a standard open, but I don't think it's equivalent to being moved up another position. That's because even a somewhat thinking player would perceive the open as being lighter because of the fold out of turn.

Flop is a standard continue, as a call or a raise depends on the tendencies of the in position player. If they will defend correctly to a raise then I would call. If they'll fold unimproved weaker k highs and a highs then it might be worth a shot.
checkraisdraw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2019, 05:52 PM   #15
Smudger2408
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 366
Re: Play along.

So, going back to my beginning thought, can we check raise flop and continue turn on most cards? Or, is that just total spewtard play?

If we have to continue, and feel CO's ranged is uncapped, why not take initiative?

I would assume we can fold to three bets (thereby giving up our equity), as we will be drawing very thin much more than when he just flats.

And, sorry for interjecting. I am small winning 10-20 player. Finding the thoughts fascinating and figure I need more study if I am going to be competing in 20-40 games.
Smudger2408 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2019, 09:35 PM   #16
mongidig
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,828
Re: Play along.

Great discussion so far. Thank you guy's!

I fear the rest of this hand may be like Game of Thrones season 8.

I called the flop.

Tc3h4h9d...I check, he bets.....I suspect he is betting most of his range. Maybe he checks his worse Aces.
mongidig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2019, 09:40 PM   #17
mongidig
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,828
Re: Play along.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLot View Post
My iron friend opens QJo from the LJ at .5 frequency and 100% from the HJ. I like the open, particularly with the extra advanced fold intel. Definitely peel the flop. Our LJ opening range should include some hands with no flush/BDFD equity that can fold like Q8s, J8s, 98s, 87s, 76s. We can bluff with many flush draws and hands which have some but low equity, hands like Q9d/s or J9d/s.

On the turn we're looking for an A, K, Q, J, 9, 8 or any heart to continue. I'd be checking all turns and prefer to use an A as a check raise bluff candidate, check raising Q's and J's for value, calling with other hands that continue.
What do you think the reason for opening QJo at .5 frequency is. Does it take into consideration the players to the left?

I don't have Q8s or J8s in my LJ range or HJ range. Might this be a nitty leak on my part?

Are you saying to bluff raise the flop with low equity hands like Q9d/s assuming we have a bdfd?

Thanks for your input!
mongidig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2019, 09:57 PM   #18
Smudger2408
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 366
Re: Play along.

Check raise and lead any river, other then king. Second check raise with that card
Smudger2408 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2019, 02:48 AM   #19
JLot
centurion
 
JLot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 139
Re: Play along.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
What do you think the reason for opening QJo at .5 frequency is. Does it take into consideration the players to the left?

I don't have Q8s or J8s in my LJ range or HJ range. Might this be a nitty leak on my part?

Are you saying to bluff raise the flop with low equity hands like Q9d/s assuming we have a bdfd?
Essentially it's saying that the correct or GTO play, assuming we and all players to our left play equally perfect post flop, is to raise half the time randomly. This could be interpreted as opening or folding having the same EV. If we think we have an advantage in post flop play compared to our opponents then we can play marginally more hands to exploit our advantage. This is a good candidate to do that with. It absolutely considers players to our left, though assumes they play perfect GTO poker.

Yes, dust those chips off and get in there with these hands you NIT .

That's right. In addition to strong draws with no showdown value (lots of flush draws on this board), we want to select hands to bluff with that are at the top of our folding range in terms of equity. A hand like Q9d is a great candidate for that, though a hand like Q9c may not be as good as is it has additional equity associated with the BDFD. In other words, Q9c is a hand that is strong enough to call a flop bet, but Q9d probably isn't. To be fair I can't conclusively say that's the exact line of demarcation in this hand, just how I would play it. These hands at the top of our folding range are good candidate hands to use as pure bluffs on the flop after an opponent's continuation bet.

I would call the turn bet after the 9d hits the board.
JLot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2019, 06:25 PM   #20
mongidig
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,828
Re: Play along.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLot View Post
Essentially it's saying that the correct or GTO play, assuming we and all players to our left play equally perfect post flop, is to raise half the time randomly. This could be interpreted as opening or folding having the same EV. If we think we have an advantage in post flop play compared to our opponents then we can play marginally more hands to exploit our advantage. This is a good candidate to do that with. It absolutely considers players to our left, though assumes they play perfect GTO poker.

Yes, dust those chips off and get in there with these hands you NIT .

That's right. In addition to strong draws with no showdown value (lots of flush draws on this board), we want to select hands to bluff with that are at the top of our folding range in terms of equity. A hand like Q9d is a great candidate for that, though a hand like Q9c may not be as good as is it has additional equity associated with the BDFD. In other words, Q9c is a hand that is strong enough to call a flop bet, but Q9d probably isn't. To be fair I can't conclusively say that's the exact line of demarcation in this hand, just how I would play it. These hands at the top of our folding range are good candidate hands to use as pure bluffs on the flop after an opponent's continuation bet.

I would call the turn bet after the 9d hits the board.
I appreciate the explanation! Thanks!
mongidig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2019, 03:41 PM   #21
bruce
old hand
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: los angeles, ca.
Posts: 1,232
Re: Play along.

You maximize your chances of winning the hand with a check raise on the turn. I wouldn’t be overly thrilled if I check call the turn and it goes check check on the river and villain wins the pot with Ace rag.
bruce is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2019, 09:28 PM   #22
fonnino
stranger
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 5
Re: Play along.

For those of you advocating a turn c-r: what value hands do you play this way? Are you waiting for the turn to c-r a 10? Do you ever c-r a 9 here (something like a K9s or Q9s with a BDFD you called flop with?)?
fonnino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2019, 12:43 AM   #23
checkraisdraw
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 291
Re: Play along.

We are completely uncapped on the turn. If anything we have a range advantage because we have all the sets plus top two all of which would play the same way at some frequency.

Depending on our 4bet strat we can also have all overpairs.
checkraisdraw is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:21 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online