My point isn’t that solvers wouldn’t help anyone become better at Holdem. They would and do. If it’s not worth it for you to become better that’s for you to decide. My point is that it’s worth it to work to become better at games without full solutions. And in some cases it can be much more profitable.

Also it’s not like you can’t evolve to learn games as solutions come to the fore. For example, I doubt that I could beat tough short handed lhe games online anymore, but I have no doubt that if I had to play lhe full time again, I could learn to beat those games in relatively short order. I hope that doesn’t come across as cocky, but I think anyone with a good work ethic, motivation, and intelligence could do the same.

Additionally my understanding is that many past LHE end bosses do in fact have a lot of money, whether that’s through investments or learning other games.


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Had a fun hand last night. Not sure how many preflop but I am pretty sure I raised and a guy three bet me. I had like AcJc. Flop came with three clubs T high no straight flush possible. I c/r and he called. Turn came As. I bet, he raised, I threebet, he fourbet, I fivebet and he tank folded. Never had someone 4 bet and fold the turn before.

Decoded = lol, I'm better than you guys because I'm so rich that I spent tons of money on stuff without worrying about getting opinions on whether it was worth anything or not.

he found out where he was at, put you on a hand he couldn't beat, and made an expert laydown!

That was me, I had KQcc. You should have called my 4bet and cr the river, I would have 3bet again.

Maybe it was lol i'm better than you cause i worked harder but I don't see how you portray it as i'm rich and richer than everyone.

And donjuan that's a fine thought experiment... all that said, the no limit models are pretty darn good I think. Are we going to find faults in 1/5/10 years? sure. But you'll be ready to fix them. And you'll have thought about everything before so it'll apply more quickly.

And the current state of the game is nowhere near that so if you can play what currently is thought of as quasi gto you'll crush.

Is your learning done forever cause you bought some solver in 2018? No.

Do solvers do the work for you?
No. You have to actively develop your solves. And you get to screw up. And get some weird ass outputs. THIS LOOKS WAY DIFFERENT THAN I EXPECTED. OK I BUILT SOMETHING WRONG, lets critically think about why it's just going all in as a 4 bet preflop instead of small 4 bet. Oh, in that branch somehow it could only go all in or check post flop. WHOOPS. Oh, while I'm here, I may as well look at the difference in EV between this broke ass strategy and the one I meant to use.

I don't need a 'cepheus' style perfect solve to put the following into practice..simple example:

I played around with some short stack stuff and at 25bb, the sb did 2bb/100 better implementing a limp, minraise, or all in vs implementing limp, 3x, or all in.

I'm not a shortstacker, but I'll be a bit more ready knowing that. Will I still **** up postflop plenty? probably. But no way am I not better off knowing it's better to start with a min/limp than 3x/limp 25bb.

lol, it wasn't you. I've seen you on PNIA.

How is that possible? Seems that the winrate, expressed as in addition to the blinds, should be a fraction of the blinds, otherwise one player is doing something very wrong.

So if you told me that limp/minraise/shove at 25bb was 0.2bb/100 better than the suggested alternative, I would think it made more sense.

yeah 3xing is doing something very wrong

This is relevant to my interests as I play small field tourneys. Typically when <25bb are in play, antes are also in play. I would think minraise with antes in play would be bad, but I'll keep this in mind.

wouldn’t you like to put in an ante and see how quasi gto strategy changes? Stuff like that is interesting to me.

What if your preflop range for the 2x vs 3x experiment was too wide to begin with? That would explain the large difference. You could probably tell if there were -ev preflop hands included in your 3x range.

It was a pre-flop solve. I didn’t input anything but the sizings. Monker did it’s best using 3x instead of 2x and came up 2bb/100 shorter

I see. Thanks.

Again, he took the fact that people expressed interest in an expensive poker tool, asking opinions about it before spending tons of money on it, to be evidence of them not wanting to get better. I took it as evidence of the opposite, them wanting to learn so much that they were considering purchasing it.

I guess he thought it was silly of them to care about the cost and was surprised they hadn't already bought it. I guess he has an infinite amount of money to spend on anything that has even a .0001% chance of improving his game? I don't know though, feel free to submit a different interpretation.

I see where you're coming from with the "trying to figure out if it's worth it' but what I think sean finds lulzy and how I interpret your "trying to figure it out" is - "man i'm too lazy to just take a leap of faith that these 'crushers' are onto something"

You aren't really going to know how it's going to help you personally until you try it out.

And if $1000 is overly expensive for your bankroll, you probably 'need' it more (and I don't mean that in any demeaning way). Need as in it will improve your game a lot. Assuming you put in the work with it.

So they were supposed to know all these crushers were using the software before they asked about it? Personally I'm not spending $50 without researching first, but that's because I'm a lol poor person.

I thought this would be a good place to start researching that kind of thing. But I guess not, if you're gonna just get mocked. Guess it shouldn't surprise me anymore though since this forum has become more a place for mockery than for help.

I'd say the volume of good free information/mockery noise ratio has been reasonable.

You've gotten plenty of free assistance. (and i have too) It's a competitive world out there. This isn't monker support forum. People aren't obligated to help you when helping you likely comes at an indirect cost if they cross paths with you in a poker game and helped you get better.

A little mockery but it's the internet don't be so sensitive. ignore the bs

I'm not being sensitive, I didn't ask anything about the solvers, I was just unhappy that two players who have contributed many posts that I enjoyed were being mocked by someone who hasn't contributed anything useful to me.

I I had a bit of interest previously, I now know they would be unlikely to help me as I would have to buy a new computer and might not even be able to figure out how to use the program since it seems to be difficult if you're not a "computer person".

fair enough

I view the discussion in the same context as DougL. Pretty sure nobody is surprised that non pros w families jobs businesses and who play 10/hrs wk aren’t renting servers and looking for the best pio Skype group to join.

Being a pro seems like running a business. Your company has to invest and pay costs (time, energy, $) if they want good returns in a dynamic and competitive field. Particularly w nlhe, there don’t seem to be many at the top that have decided solvers aren’t worth the investment.

I’m not taking offense to anything here, chillrob. Some of us don’t live in the same world. I don’t need to use a solver if I spend over 90% of my time playing LHE against total morons. But 10% of the time, I’m in tougher spots where spending time with solvers would be practical for me. Everyone has to start somewhere, right? I didn’t even know they had solvers for LHE two weeks ago.

I prefer to spend my time studying on things I’m currently working on. For instance, I don’t see much point in spending a few hours studying 2-7 this week if I’m not going to play my next deuce hand for a couple months.

That’s pretty much where I’m at with solvers. I’m not really sure how practical they would be for me on a daily basis and the price point is steep enough where it’s not negligible. I wouldn’t buy a PS4 if I was never going to play just because I can afford it.

I don't have much to add apart from the following. If you're interested in using MonkerSolver, there is a free to use version with limited usability.

http://www.monkerware.com/solver.html

PioSolver also has a free to use version with limited usability.

https://www.piosolver.com/collection...piosolver-free

Official TwoPlusTwo support thread to see existing issues and challenges.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...olver-1651569/


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When I started playing mixed games, I also signed up for JDalla's mixed games course. It was really helpful for providing me the fundamentals of the standard HORSE games + triple draw. I'm hoping he will release part 2 in the future to cover the other carnival draw games.

I am super thankful for posters like ScotchOnDaRocks and DonJuan for sharing their insights into draw games (basic fundamental questions) and thought processes when they can easily keep that information to themselves. I'm in the camp of people who assume everyone else is using every tool available until proven otherwise.

Pro Poker Tools is another solid choice for running ranges and equities.

http://www.propokertools.com/

This is a totally reasonable position, as long as the games you are playing are super soft. Sounds like you learned new stuff, ITT. 2+2 forum at its best.



Macaubound summarized my position, even better than I wrote it originally. Actually being in one of those, still haven't ponied up. So if there's anyone dumb around here, it would at least be me.