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Old 08-16-2017, 03:26 PM   #1
ShiptheSherBET
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20/40 Line with KK

Day-time, weekend, $20/$40 Borgata LHE action. Pretty standard game with perhaps two or three spots.

Hero opens with KKin the hijack

Cutoff folds

Button, who is on the loose, passive side, flats.

SB folds

BB calls. BB plays much bigger, up to at least 80/160. I have played 40/80 with him a few times and noted he is capable of making not only quasi/semi-bluff moves on later streets, but in 2 or 3-way pots is capable of triple-barreling with air.

The three of us see a flop:

QT4

BB checks, I bet, Button calls, BB check-raises...

I flat, expecting button to call and also planning to raise most turns for value; also at times to fold out the button.

Turn: 3

BB bets, I raise with the over pair and second nut-flush draw, Button folds...BB tanks a considerable amount of time for a limit game (does not feel like a Hollywood, but rather serious contemplation of whether he has the best hand here), then three-bets. I call.

River: 5

BB bets, I...?

Also wondering about my line throughout the hand. I typically would three-bet the flop and call down if I get 4-bet on the flop by the BB if I don't improve.
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Old 08-16-2017, 04:05 PM   #2
OnTheRail15
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Re: 20/40 Line with KK

Call


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Old 08-16-2017, 05:00 PM   #3
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Re: 20/40 Line with KK

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Call


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Agreed.
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Old 08-16-2017, 05:08 PM   #4
phunkphish
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Re: 20/40 Line with KK

Too far up your range + possible V is vbetting worse.
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Old 08-16-2017, 05:55 PM   #5
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Re: 20/40 Line with KK

Pay the man off. I mean, just the AhX's alone are enough. Plus he might have AQ, right?
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Old 08-16-2017, 06:42 PM   #6
zoogenhiem
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Re: 20/40 Line with KK

I'm a LHE newb so the fact that I would call doesn't mean much. What I am curious about is how much a competent player should 3bet turn with the nut flush draw and low or no pair? Would villain be 3betting turn with AQ no hearts? Also, no one has yet commented on the flop action and hypotheticals facing different action.
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Old 08-16-2017, 07:22 PM   #7
lawdude
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Re: 20/40 Line with KK

If he thinks you are good, an expert player should have a turn range with just enough bluffs in it so that you are indifferent between calling and folding.

If he thinks you are bad, an expert player should have a turn range imbalanced towards bluffs if he thinks you fold too much and imbalanced towards value bets if he thinks you call too much.

Bottom line, though, an expert player is highly likely to have some bluff or semi-bluff hands in his turn 3-betting range, and something with the ace of hearts in it seems the prime qualifier here (not only because of the flush draw but also because it can sometimes hit the ace and be good).
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Old 08-16-2017, 07:46 PM   #8
monikrazy
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Re: 20/40 Line with KK

Like others have noted, call is standard, I think I prefer a call on turn because hero's kk blocks some semi-bluffs and river is fairly easy to play, would consider going for more value on benign rivers
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Old 08-16-2017, 08:44 PM   #9
ninefingershuffle
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Re: 20/40 Line with KK

Jam the flop?
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Old 08-16-2017, 09:35 PM   #10
OnTheRail15
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Re: 20/40 Line with KK

I prefer his line


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Old 08-17-2017, 02:14 AM   #11
phunkphish
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Re: 20/40 Line with KK

If we trust our read, jamming turn is reasonable. His delay is weak, so he can't 5b. We get an extra bet in case he checks back a counterfeit card.
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Old 08-17-2017, 02:27 AM   #12
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Re: 20/40 Line with KK

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I prefer his line


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Once again, agreed.
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Old 08-17-2017, 02:58 AM   #13
steveistheman84
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Re: 20/40 Line with KK

call nh
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Old 08-17-2017, 07:24 AM   #14
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Re: 20/40 Line with KK

So for posters who like the turn-raise, do you also raise non-heart turns or prefer raising the heart because more equity when behind vs 2p/sets?

also would be interested in some discussion of 3! Vs call on flop, right now I prefer former because of the 3rd player acting after hero
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Old 08-17-2017, 08:12 AM   #15
steveistheman84
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Re: 20/40 Line with KK

i just raise kk regardless of h for pure equity
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Old 08-17-2017, 08:19 AM   #16
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Re: 20/40 Line with KK

aside from 3betting being really unbalanced, i think you win more $ in this situation anyway when delaying.
what do you guys think of spots like this where you have 2 hearts, flop a bdfd and turn a flush draw? call or raise?
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Old 08-17-2017, 09:13 AM   #17
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Re: 20/40 Line with KK

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I prefer his line


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Anyone care to give a primer on when to jam versus when to delay in a three handed pot? My default is to jam on wet boards (like this one) and delay on drier ones. Also, if you don't jam this on the flop, do you jam anything?
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Old 08-17-2017, 10:44 AM   #18
ShiptheSherBET
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Re: 20/40 Line with KK

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Anyone care to give a primer on when to jam versus when to delay in a three handed pot? My default is to jam on wet boards (like this one) and delay on drier ones. Also, if you don't jam this on the flop, do you jam anything?
If I do not have the K in my hand on this board, then I tend to jam the flop and then become much more defensive if a hits the turn. If no on the turn, raising can still be correct, and often is, if I did not 3-bet on the flop which slows down Villain BB.

So, let's suppose I flat Villain BB check-raise on the flop like I did in this hand but instead of KK I am holding KK then I am likely just calling down both later streets with the same run-out board, even though raising can still be correct at times with certain opponents.

In other words, beyond whether a board is wet or dry, I am factoring in backdoor potential in order to slow-play a flop like that.
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Old 08-17-2017, 10:46 AM   #19
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Re: 20/40 Line with KK

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If we trust our read, jamming turn is reasonable. His delay is weak, so he can't 5b. We get an extra bet in case he checks back a counterfeit card.
Great point. Love the idea of 4-betting a thinking opponent with a genuinely weak delay, especially when I am in position.
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Old 08-17-2017, 10:53 AM   #20
Munga30
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Re: 20/40 Line with KK

Not a primer but I'll share thoughts.

I think it comes down to making more money with this hand. And that turns on how reliably we get the chance to raise ie how often BB bets turn.

Given our position, flop texture, and cbet, BB has to be strong/manaical enough to bet most turns given his flop raise. If we are considering a protection argument, the turn raise is prolly more effective, too. But i think "for value" is enough to make this line best.

Granted this flop texture alone is one Id want to jam. But the total situation makes waiting attractive.

Non heart turns are even better to raise, imo.

When do i jam? If i were oop for sure. If i have reads affecting BBs turn barrel freq. If the flop were higher and drier. AK3 is the classic ex. If my range was wider (i opened CO) is less clear to me as args on both sides seem to gain when extending my reasoning above(!?). If my range were narrower (i opened lj-) i think delaying the top of my range gains but the bottom of my turn raise range prolly goes up, betting when checked to.

Appreciate any comments. Trying to learn.
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Old 08-17-2017, 11:09 AM   #21
OnTheRail15
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Re: 20/40 Line with KK

Well it's certainly dependent on who is in the pot with us but I think either line can be viable. It's worth noting that specifically KhKx is one of the best overpairs to delay as we hold blockers to many hands we want to face with 2 bets on the flop leaving btn much more likely to be drawing slim...


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Old 08-17-2017, 12:09 PM   #22
SetofJacks
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Re: 20/40 Line with KK

I generally jam both strong draws and strong value hands 3 ways, and prefer to delay when it's heads up.
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Old 08-17-2017, 01:19 PM   #23
ninefingershuffle
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Re: 20/40 Line with KK

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShiptheSherBET View Post
If I do not have the K in my hand on this board, then I tend to jam the flop and then become much more defensive if a hits the turn. If no on the turn, raising can still be correct, and often is, if I did not 3-bet on the flop which slows down Villain BB.

So, let's suppose I flat Villain BB check-raise on the flop like I did in this hand but instead of KK I am holding KK then I am likely just calling down both later streets with the same run-out board, even though raising can still be correct at times with certain opponents.

In other words, beyond whether a board is wet or dry, I am factoring in backdoor potential in order to slow-play a flop like that.
Sure, but what about the advantages of making the third player face two more bets on the flop?
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Old 08-17-2017, 02:44 PM   #24
ShiptheSherBET
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Re: 20/40 Line with KK

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Sure, but what about the advantages of making the third player face two more bets on the flop?
Villain #2 here on the button is loose/passive. I find a turn raise often seals the deal to knock them out more than flop raises do, even when it is two bets back to them. Their mindset dictates very loose flop play and then often an admission of reality on the turn.

If Villain #2 is tighter, I lean towards your 3-bet flop scenario to get things heads up.
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Old 08-17-2017, 03:31 PM   #25
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Re: 20/40 Line with KK

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Originally Posted by OnTheRail15 View Post
Well it's certainly dependent on who is in the pot with us but I think either line can be viable. It's worth noting that specifically KhKx is one of the best overpairs to delay as we hold blockers to many hands we want to face with 2 bets on the flop leaving btn much more likely to be drawing slim...


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Correct. Plus, we get to see a turn card before deciding if our hand is really worth raising (like if the Jh bangs off, we may rather opt to call down). We have a strong hand, but not one where I just want to shovel the money in on the flop. I'd much rather jam flop here w/ QT/TT/QQ than KhKx
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