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Old 07-31-2017, 09:34 AM   #1
PhatPots
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20/40 Limit, Checkup on preflop spots

Just a checkup on some preflop spots. The game is 1/3 good players, 1/3 competent players, 1/3 fish (maybe more fish than competent players).


I use to play more limit holdem but it has been a while. This game only comes to the city for 1 month in the summer. So time for my annual checkup.

There are a few spots that I was unsure about and wanted to check.

Hand 1:
MP raises, all fold, Hero has A9o in the BB, hero?

Hand 2:
CO Raises, Hero has JTs in OTB, hero?

Hand 3:
UTG raises, Hero is in MP with 77, hero?
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Old 07-31-2017, 09:39 AM   #2
6MaxLHE
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Re: 20/40 Limit, Checkup on preflop spots

Hand 1 - call.

Hand 2 - 3bet.

Hand 3 - fold.
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Old 07-31-2017, 12:14 PM   #3
SetofJacks
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Re: 20/40 Limit, Checkup on preflop spots

Call, 3-bet, 3-bet IMO
BUT a lot of players in my game are LAG and will open 44+, 89s, etc. UTG. Against a tighter range you could definitely fold 77. And in a LP cold-cally game you could coldcall 77.
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Old 07-31-2017, 04:32 PM   #4
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Re: 20/40 Limit, Checkup on preflop spots

I agree with setofjacks. Call, 3bet and 3bet against loose openers though folding is certainly something you'd never lose sleep over.

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Old 07-31-2017, 07:25 PM   #5
jdr0317
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Re: 20/40 Limit, Checkup on preflop spots

77 must be folded vs an UTG open w/out a read (77 sometimes won't even feature in my UTG range). Not sure why we'd advocate 3 betting an UTG raiser readless here.
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Old 07-31-2017, 07:54 PM   #6
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Re: 20/40 Limit, Checkup on preflop spots

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdr0317 View Post
77 must be folded vs an UTG open w/out a read (77 sometimes won't even feature in my UTG range). Not sure why we'd advocate 3 betting an UTG raiser readless here.
+1
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Old 08-01-2017, 06:26 AM   #7
steveistheman84
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Re: 20/40 Limit, Checkup on preflop spots

hand 3's not even close. fold. other hands are standard 3bets.
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Old 08-01-2017, 07:46 AM   #8
Wolfram
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Re: 20/40 Limit, Checkup on preflop spots

Why 3bet hand 3? It's HU. You're not squeezing anybody out of the hand. You you really think you have a value 3-bet here?
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Old 08-01-2017, 09:55 AM   #9
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Re: 20/40 Limit, Checkup on preflop spots

Quote:
Originally Posted by steveistheman84 View Post
hand 3's not even close. fold. other hands are standard 3bets.
When did A9o become a standard 3 bet against an MP open?
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Old 08-01-2017, 11:12 AM   #10
SetofJacks
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Re: 20/40 Limit, Checkup on preflop spots

If 77 is not even close then 88 and 99 are also folds.
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Old 08-01-2017, 12:50 PM   #11
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Re: 20/40 Limit, Checkup on preflop spots

Quote:
Originally Posted by SetofJacks View Post
If 77 is not even close then 88 and 99 are also folds.
That's a ridiculous comment. 99 is going to perform better than 77 against an UTG range, lumping them together as "medium pocket pairs" is disingenuous.

77:
Code:
PokerCruncher-Advanced-iPhone V.8.2.1

(Equity,  Win,  Tie)
Player 1:  55.3%  54.8%  1.02%  {77+, A8s+, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KJo+}
Player 2:  44.7%  44.2%  1.02%  [7c7h]

Board:  [? ? ? ? ?]
Deal To:  River
Dead Cards:  {}

Monte Carlo Simulation: 500000 trials
88:
Code:
PokerCruncher-Advanced-iPhone V.8.2.1

(Equity,  Win,  Tie)
Player 1:  52.8%  52.3%  1.03%  {77+, A8s+, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KJo+}
Player 2:  47.2%  46.7%  1.03%  [8h8c]

Board:  [? ? ? ? ?]
Deal To:  River
Dead Cards:  {}

Monte Carlo Simulation: 500000 trials
99:
Code:
PokerCruncher-Advanced-iPhone V.8.2.1

(Equity,  Win,  Tie)
Player 1:  49.6%  49.1%  1.04%  {77+, A8s+, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KJo+}
Player 2:  50.4%  49.9%  1.04%  [9h9c]

Board:  [? ? ? ? ?]
Deal To:  River
Dead Cards:  {}

Monte Carlo Simulation: 500000 trials
Even in this wide-ish example, 77 dominates nothing from the opener's range. 99, OTOH, dominates A8s, K9s, 88, 77. Even 88 is a defensible 3 bet in this scenario. But 77 is too much. Not really sure when I said it wasn't close, too, but the numbers clearly tell me that it's not good enough. And as to why 3 bet 88 but not 77, well, the line has to be drawn somewhere, or else we go for the full logical extreme and progress our statements from "if 88, then why not 77?" to "if 42o, then why not 32o?"
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Old 08-01-2017, 01:05 PM   #12
SetofJacks
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Re: 20/40 Limit, Checkup on preflop spots

You didn't say it's not even close, steveistheman did.
Agree the line has to be drawn somewhere and 88 or even 99 seems like a good place to start against an unknown.

UTG ranges are a lot wider in my game though.
A2s+, K9s, 44+, QJo, any two suited broadways, 78s+ or sometimes even lower.
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Old 08-01-2017, 01:43 PM   #13
steveistheman84
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Re: 20/40 Limit, Checkup on preflop spots

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdr0317 View Post
When did A9o become a standard 3 bet against an MP open?
sorry, thought it was bvb
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Old 08-01-2017, 02:01 PM   #14
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Re: 20/40 Limit, Checkup on preflop spots

Quote:
Originally Posted by steveistheman84 View Post
sorry, thought it was bvb
Fair enough
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Old 08-01-2017, 02:03 PM   #15
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Re: 20/40 Limit, Checkup on preflop spots

Quote:
Originally Posted by SetofJacks View Post
You didn't say it's not even close, steveistheman did.
Agree the line has to be drawn somewhere and 88 or even 99 seems like a good place to start against an unknown.

UTG ranges are a lot wider in my game though.
A2s+, K9s, 44+, QJo, any two suited broadways, 78s+ or sometimes even lower.
If this is the case then obviously we 3 bet 77 from MP. But really, you don't want to be sticking 3 bets in against an UTG raiser blind, because those ranges are atypical to games I normally play.
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Old 08-01-2017, 03:38 PM   #16
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Re: 20/40 Limit, Checkup on preflop spots

Quote:
Originally Posted by SetofJacks View Post
If 77 is not even close then 88 and 99 are also folds.
Nothing is ever close here. It's either terrible or expert.
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Old 08-01-2017, 04:43 PM   #17
dead..money
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Re: 20/40 Limit, Checkup on preflop spots

So Much hate for 77. Yes it's a easy fold vs solid players or even a bad nitty reg but there are lots of players where I am very excited to 3 bet and it's not close.

You just have to know when to do each and you won't figure that out on a forum where people are not privy to your opponents.
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Old 08-01-2017, 04:50 PM   #18
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Re: 20/40 Limit, Checkup on preflop spots

Do you guys think people look down at A5s, 45s, 67s 22,66 etc and think these aren't very good hands to play UTG im going to wait for 99+ and AQ+

If somebody I have never seen before opened Utg I would probably 3 bet 77 fwiw. It's way more likely they show up with At least 1 undercard than an expert UTG range
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Old 08-01-2017, 04:54 PM   #19
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Re: 20/40 Limit, Checkup on preflop spots

^ Many people don't fold them, but I don't think many raise those hands UTG either.
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Old 08-01-2017, 05:10 PM   #20
jdr0317
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Re: 20/40 Limit, Checkup on preflop spots

Quote:
Originally Posted by dead..money View Post
So Much hate for 77. Yes it's a easy fold vs solid players or even a bad nitty reg but there are lots of players where I am very excited to 3 bet and it's not close.
I don't disagree. I'd just rather find out who these people are first, versus expanding my "3 bet versus competent opponent" range as a default.
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Old 08-01-2017, 05:34 PM   #21
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Re: 20/40 Limit, Checkup on preflop spots

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdr0317 View Post
That's a ridiculous comment. 99 is going to perform better than 77 against an UTG range, lumping them together as "medium pocket pairs" is disingenuous.

77:
Code:
PokerCruncher-Advanced-iPhone V.8.2.1

(Equity,  Win,  Tie)
Player 1:  55.3%  54.8%  1.02%  {77+, A8s+, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KJo+}
Player 2:  44.7%  44.2%  1.02%  [7c7h]

Board:  [? ? ? ? ?]
Deal To:  River
Dead Cards:  {}

Monte Carlo Simulation: 500000 trials
88:
Code:
PokerCruncher-Advanced-iPhone V.8.2.1

(Equity,  Win,  Tie)
Player 1:  52.8%  52.3%  1.03%  {77+, A8s+, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KJo+}
Player 2:  47.2%  46.7%  1.03%  [8h8c]

Board:  [? ? ? ? ?]
Deal To:  River
Dead Cards:  {}

Monte Carlo Simulation: 500000 trials
99:
Code:
PokerCruncher-Advanced-iPhone V.8.2.1

(Equity,  Win,  Tie)
Player 1:  49.6%  49.1%  1.04%  {77+, A8s+, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KJo+}
Player 2:  50.4%  49.9%  1.04%  [9h9c]

Board:  [? ? ? ? ?]
Deal To:  River
Dead Cards:  {}

Monte Carlo Simulation: 500000 trials
Even in this wide-ish example, 77 dominates nothing from the opener's range. 99, OTOH, dominates A8s, K9s, 88, 77.
I'm curious as to how 77 and 99 compare if one removes 88 and 77 (and 99, better yet) from UTG's open range. Of course leaving them in will make 99 look significantly better.

And why A8s instead of A9s, etc? Your minimums are built to favour 99. Of course 99 is better, but is it so much better?
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Old 08-01-2017, 08:50 PM   #22
jdr0317
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Re: 20/40 Limit, Checkup on preflop spots

Quote:
Originally Posted by e_holle View Post
I'm curious as to how 77 and 99 compare if one removes 88 and 77 (and 99, better yet) from UTG's open range. Of course leaving them in will make 99 look significantly better.

And why A8s instead of A9s, etc? Your minimums are built to favour 99. Of course 99 is better, but is it so much better?
If anything, this range is too wide (top 13% on Poker Cruncher). If you condense to the top 10%, 77 has 42% and is a clear fold, while 99 has 47% and is a marginal 3 bet.
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Old 08-02-2017, 01:20 AM   #23
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Re: 20/40 Limit, Checkup on preflop spots

If the blinds are bad and likely to cold call a raise but fold to a 3-bet, hand 2 probably makes more money just cold calling.

Hand 3 - 99s is a 3bet or fold. 77s is a fold.
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Old 08-02-2017, 03:23 AM   #24
SetofJacks
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Re: 20/40 Limit, Checkup on preflop spots

Quote:
Originally Posted by dadjoey View Post
If the blinds are bad and likely to cold call a raise but fold to a 3-bet, hand 2 probably makes more money just cold calling.

Hand 3 - 99s is a 3bet or fold. 77s is a fold.
99 is only a fold against super passive players. Against all others it's a 3-bet.

I hardly think having a "call one more but not two more" range the blinds makes them bad players. For example, A9o should be in that range.

And generally we'd rather have their dead money in the pot rather than extra players.
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Old 08-02-2017, 09:20 AM   #25
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Re: 20/40 Limit, Checkup on preflop spots

Quote:
Originally Posted by dead..money View Post
Do you guys think people look down at A5s, 45s, 67s 22,66 etc and think these aren't very good hands to play UTG im going to wait for 99+ and AQ+

If somebody I have never seen before opened Utg I would probably 3 bet 77 fwiw. It's way more likely they show up with At least 1 undercard than an expert UTG range
The character of the game of hold'em has changed over the years. More people fold these in early now than ever. I use to assume their ranges to be this wide, but no longer.
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