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Old 10-05-2017, 02:03 AM   #26
Mason Malmuth
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Re: 20/40 early position

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Originally Posted by phunkphish View Post
I think its the opposite. If people 3b too light, you should raise lighter, as this is a situation of implicit collusion. If people are quick to flat with a wide range, then I'd want to play tighter / skew my range towards good multiway (i.e. suited) hands.
If someone is three-betting behind you with a huge amount of hands, then raising with more hands would become correct. But it's not what I observe. However, there are a number of players in the games I play who are clearly three-betting too much, and what this does is that it hurts the bottom part of your raising range while helping the upper part of your raising range. So I stand by the advice to tighten your raising range when players like this are behind you (unless the number of three-betting hands is simply huge).

As for having people behind you who are quick to flat with a wide range, does this include hands they should be reraising with? If it does, then this is a reason to raise with a wider range since they're not extracting as much from you as they should.

Best wishes,
Mason
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Old 10-05-2017, 03:01 AM   #27
Mason Malmuth
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Re: 20/40 early position

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Originally Posted by dead..money View Post
Mason, I don't think either question is intersting, while we get a free card sometimes you neglect what happens when we make a flush (we lose money).
Okay. Whether the questions are interesting or not doesn't mean the answers don't impact correct strategy.

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Assuming a play is correct because a pro did it is pretty bad. Lots of pros/winners do stuff that's clearly wrong even if they often use good judgement.
I agree with this. In fact, it's my opinion that most pros don't play anywhere close to what a great limit hold 'em player can play.

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Lastly, preflight isn't remotely interesting when we are against a range that includes A7, 2 cold callers and a sb call. I'm all for calling 2-3 ways but this is a relatively simple 3 bet for pure value.
I suggest you read the chapter "When the Pot Gets Big" in our book Hold 'em Poker for Advanced Players. It should give you a few things to think about.

Mason
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Old 10-06-2017, 12:15 PM   #28
PocketKings
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Re: 20/40 early position

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Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
I suggest you read the chapter "When the Pot Gets Big" in our book Hold 'em Poker for Advanced Players. It should give you a few things to think about.

Mason
HI Mason, thanks!

In the chaper you gave an example that Hero has T9 and flop A76. The pot is assumed big...you said Hero should donk flop to get hands like KJ and KT out.

Some questions about this...

1. How big a pot we are talking about here usually?
2. Is it by capping preflop or one raise plus many callers? Basically how many opponents on flop if that matters here.
3. Betting J9 to get KTo out makes sense since Hero does not want to catch a T and still lose. By betting against KJo, do you mean removing oppoenents' chance to catch K or J to beat Hero when Hero could catch a 9 or T?
4. In general if a pot gets so big on flop, it is due to many players and/or lots of action preflop. For an Ace high flop someone is going to hold an Ace or big pair so often and does not fold to Hero's flop donk. Now why we have to care so much about ridding hands like KJo or KTo here?
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Old 10-07-2017, 05:55 AM   #29
Mason Malmuth
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Re: 20/40 early position

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Originally Posted by PocketKings View Post
HI Mason, thanks!

In the chaper you gave an example that Hero has T9 and flop A76. The pot is assumed big...you said Hero should donk flop to get hands like KJ and KT out.

Some questions about this...

1. How big a pot we are talking about here usually?
We didn't define this, but I suspect that most experienced players would have a good idea of when the pot is big.

Quote:
2. Is it by capping preflop or one raise plus many callers? Basically how many opponents on flop if that matters here.
Again, you should use your judgement.

Quote:
3. Betting J9 to get KTo out makes sense since Hero does not want to catch a T and still lose.
I think you meant T9 and not J9.

Quote:
By betting against KJo, do you mean removing oppoenents' chance to catch K or J to beat Hero when Hero could catch a 9 or T?
Yes.

Quote:
4. In general if a pot gets so big on flop, it is due to many players and/or lots of action preflop. For an Ace high flop someone is going to hold an Ace or big pair so often and does not fold to Hero's flop donk. Now why we have to care so much about ridding hands like KJo or KTo here?
If an ace was out virtually every time you would be correct. But remember, when there is an ace on board, it only leaves three aces, not four, in the 47 cards that you have not seen. In our opinion, the ace should not be out in your opponents' hands often enough to make this play correct.

Best wishes,
Mason
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