Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Mid-High Stakes Limit Discussions of mid-high stakes limit Texas Hold'em

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-24-2017, 03:59 PM   #26
chillrob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chillrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: under a dark cloud
Posts: 9,778
Re: 20/40 - Chop or Naw?

I've played at a lot of different casinos in all parts of the country, and I also believe that someone trying to selectively chop is extremely rare.
chillrob is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2017, 04:01 PM   #27
ZOMG_RIGGED!
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
ZOMG_RIGGED!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: now with friendly emoticons!
Posts: 17,385
Re: 20/40 - Chop or Naw?

Playing across the country isn't the same as playing all your volume is a single casino that may or may not have a higher ratio of POS than other casinos.

Besides, until a month ago you'd never heard of someone changing their mind on chopping, so I'm going to take your chopping observations with a grain of salt
ZOMG_RIGGED! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2017, 04:16 PM   #28
LifeRebooted
journeyman
 
LifeRebooted's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 340
Re: 20/40 - Chop or Naw?

I've spent a fair amount of time playing in a number of card rooms, including some of the ones most known for having a high ratio of POS (read: Commerce, Bay101). But that's beside the point. If someone plays in a game with a ton of angle shooters it only makes sense to protect against that. But my guess is that most people, including those who refuse to chop based on the angle shooting rationale, aren't playing in those games. After all, 6Max's description of angle shooters being "out there" is a far cry from something like, "my game is littered with angle shooters," but I'm sure he can speak for himself and let us know if I'm wrong.
LifeRebooted is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2017, 04:33 PM   #29
chillrob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chillrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: under a dark cloud
Posts: 9,778
Re: 20/40 - Chop or Naw?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZOMG_RIGGED! View Post
Besides, until a month ago you'd never heard of someone changing their mind on chopping, so I'm going to take your chopping observations with a grain of salt
That's not what I said in that thread, so I'm going to take your memory with a grain of salt.

Anyway, I have often seen people on 2+2 say that they chop when at home with regulars they know, but don't chop when travelling (especially to Vegas), because they are afraid they will get angle shot. Well, that's a silly reason, because it is extremely unlikely to happen. And Vegas is not full of angle-shooters, either regs or tourists. Even in southern CA, where I also have played a good amount, and where I have run into the most angleshooters, this particular angle is not one I worry about in the least.

Last edited by chillrob; 07-24-2017 at 04:41 PM.
chillrob is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2017, 04:37 PM   #30
TheDarkKnight
adept
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Gotham
Posts: 1,138
Re: 20/40 - Chop or Naw?

I have definitely played against ppl that suddenly decide to play a hand but were previously chopping. While it isn't because they are ignorant/new, they are basically also never local regs. It has never bothered me when someone "randomly" decides not to chop, but it does mean we aren't chopping the next time. Some ppl get offended; I think of it as my happy place.

My hard rule is I'm never chopping with 5 or less. I will give some wiggle room to 6-handed but if the game is playing tight, like multiple chops an orbit, I'm announcing that I'm playing all hands.
TheDarkKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2017, 05:37 PM   #31
SetofJacks
veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,110
Re: 20/40 - Chop or Naw?

I always chop 20/40 and below, but usually play at 40/80 because almost no one else chops and it's far too easy for me to end up with an expert on my left and fish on my right.

Chopping tends to keep the games a lot more friendly and that's a good thing.
When rec players who normally chop end up losing 6 BB's to a non-chopping pro, that tends to make them unhappy and can kill the mood of the game.

Last edited by SetofJacks; 07-24-2017 at 05:43 PM.
SetofJacks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2017, 03:20 AM   #32
phunkphish
veteran
 
phunkphish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,706
Re: 20/40 - Chop or Naw?

View: selectively chopping is not angling.

Terrible player on your right so you play; good player, then maybe you chop. Good player on your left so you ask to chop; bad player, you choose to play. You adjust your range based on your opponent -- where is the angle?

Too many people feel too entitled / take for granted chopped blinds. If someone looks at their SB and finds aces and this one time and decides to play, they are not 'angling' you: you aren't entitled to anything.
phunkphish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2017, 05:36 AM   #33
OnTheRail15
Pooh-Bah
 
OnTheRail15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Somewhere else
Posts: 3,988
Re: 20/40 - Chop or Naw?

Lol do you really believe that?
OnTheRail15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2017, 06:11 AM   #34
dead..money
centurion
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 112
Re: 20/40 - Chop or Naw?

Quote:
Originally Posted by phunkphish View Post
View: selectively chopping is not angling.

Terrible player on your right so you play; good player, then maybe you chop. Good player on your left so you ask to chop; bad player, you choose to play. You adjust your range based on your opponent -- where is the angle?

Too many people feel too entitled / take for granted chopped blinds. If someone looks at their SB and finds aces and this one time and decides to play, they are not 'angling' you: you aren't entitled to anything.
You aren't adjusting your range based on skill of the opponent, you are adjusting the rules of the game based on his skill set
dead..money is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2017, 12:43 PM   #35
lawdude
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 9,947
Re: 20/40 - Chop or Naw?

I wouldn't call it "angling" because angling to me means exploiting the rules in a hyper-technical fashion or doing something technically legal but designed to unfairly deceive another player.

But selectively chopping IS dumb and nasty. What I would say to you about it is this-- poker is a social game. That means it is both a game (a competition) and social.

And the "social" part means that sometimes you shouldn't wring every cent of short term expected value out of the game if it will drive away other players or make them not want to play with you.

Here's an example. Suppose a big fish misreads his hand at a showdown, throws it forward towards the muck, and then realizes his mistake and pulls his cards back before the dealer mixes them in the muck.

The dumb, nasty player demands the dealer muck the hand, berates the dealer for not doing so, and calls the floor.

The smart, social player says nothing and lets the fish pull his hand back unless the cards are truly mixed in the muck and not identifiable. Because we want everyone to feel that this is a social game where we all want the best hand to win and we don't take advantage of players for honest mistakes.

For the same reasons you generally should not call string bets and should not force bets to remain in the pot where a player misreads the action and wants to take her bet back before the next player acts.

What message do you think it sends to fish when obvious good players chop with their friends but insist on playing blind versus blind against the fish? Is that a game that the fish is going to want to come back and play in? Is that the sort of behavior that is going to cause other players to enjoy playing against you?

No, it's not an angle. But it's dumb, and it's nasty, and you shouldn't do it.
lawdude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2017, 04:01 PM   #36
TheDarkKnight
adept
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Gotham
Posts: 1,138
Re: 20/40 - Chop or Naw?

I agree with all that.

I do think at the 20/40 level most players don't find it alarming when someone doesn't chop. I think the only game I've played in where the players would be taken aback is the 20/40 at the Peppermill in Reno. Commerce, Fortune in WA, Bellagio... no one really seems to care.
TheDarkKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2017, 04:28 PM   #37
bicyclekick
luckbox
 
bicyclekick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: waiting to ski
Posts: 6,760
Re: 20/40 - Chop or Naw?

lol at being offended/bothered by somebody wants to play the poker game that's dealt.

gimme a break
bicyclekick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2017, 07:10 PM   #38
TheDarkKnight
adept
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Gotham
Posts: 1,138
Re: 20/40 - Chop or Naw?

You say that like there aren't heaps of people out there that are outraged when you bet them heads up or open from the button... God forbid not chopping.

I've played in many a 4/8 game where someone has made a snide indirect remark about me after I raise a bunch of hands or check-raise them, saying something along the lines of "I'm just here to have fun. I'm not here to make money" while giving me a look like I'm ruining everyone's friendly party.

I haven't broke this retort out yet, but it's pretty fitting: "You know what I find fun about playing poker? Playing poker."
TheDarkKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2017, 09:10 PM   #39
6MaxLHE
old hand
 
6MaxLHE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Parx Table 27
Posts: 1,657
Re: 20/40 - Chop or Naw?

In general chopping is bad for the game b/c there is always that one retarded fish that thinks it's ok to chop the 82o and won't chop the KK in the same down. And when a "pro" is on your left he won't chop but will chop time pots and will also chop when a better player or good friend is on his left.

In online play poker is pure, it protects against this scummy stuff and forces players to play the hand. As poker should be.
6MaxLHE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2017, 01:51 AM   #40
bicyclekick
luckbox
 
bicyclekick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: waiting to ski
Posts: 6,760
Re: 20/40 - Chop or Naw?

we aren't talking about 4/8. At 4/8 i'd be chopping cause lol rake. but still, it's not hard to say it's fun for you to play the binds if they say something after you say you always play. It doesn't have to be confrontational...

If they can't handle it? owell that's on them.
bicyclekick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2017, 02:58 PM   #41
samdash
adept
 
samdash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,108
Re: 20/40 - Chop or Naw?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDarkKnight View Post
You say that like there aren't heaps of people out there that are outraged when you bet them heads up or open from the button... God forbid not chopping.

I've played in many a 4/8 game where someone has made a snide indirect remark about me after I raise a bunch of hands or check-raise them, saying something along the lines of "I'm just here to have fun. I'm not here to make money" while giving me a look like I'm ruining everyone's friendly party.

I haven't broke this retort out yet, but it's pretty fitting: "You know what I find fun about playing poker? Playing poker."
They weren't "there to have fun" a minute ago when they tried to extract value from you on the river.
samdash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2017, 03:48 PM   #42
Montrealcorp
Pooh-Bah
 
Montrealcorp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 5,539
Re: 20/40 - Chop or Naw?

Situation.
You play a game where there is a bad beat jackpot ( lose with quad 9 or higher for example) or the game have a bonus for high hand (quad 2 or better).

You are in the SB or BB no matter , and usually you agree to chop.

But first before deciding you check your card and see you have a hand that could potentially end up being qualify for the bonus and you decide to play and not chop.

Is it wrong ?
Is that angle shooting ?
You think the opponent will take it badly ?
Thx
Montrealcorp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2017, 04:02 PM   #43
chillrob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chillrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: under a dark cloud
Posts: 9,778
Re: 20/40 - Chop or Naw?

Most regs have some kind of agreement regarding this and do not take it badly, and whoever wins the hand usually returns the blind to the other player.

However, be aware what doing this is costing you. In many rooms, some rake / drop will be taken upon seeing the flop. Personally I don't think the BBJ is a good deal for players to begin with; in a headsup hand it is even less likely to be hit, and if you are paying more than $1 for the privilege of trying to hit, checking it down is almost certainly massively -EV.
chillrob is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2017, 06:31 PM   #44
KL03
old hand
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Where they don't respect my raises
Posts: 1,233
Re: 20/40 - Chop or Naw?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montrealcorp View Post
Situation.
You play a game where there is a bad beat jackpot ( lose with quad 9 or higher for example) or the game have a bonus for high hand (quad 2 or better).

You are in the SB or BB no matter , and usually you agree to chop.

But first before deciding you check your card and see you have a hand that could potentially end up being qualify for the bonus and you decide to play and not chop.

Is it wrong ?
Is that angle shooting ?
You think the opponent will take it badly ?
Thx
First of all, almost every hand could hit a jackpot, so not chopping with a "jackpot hand" is silly.

Most players will be offended, because you are usually doing this with a strong hand, but then chopping with a weak hand. Certainly unethical, and maybe worse.

However, during an aces cracked promotion, I have seen players not chop aces, hoping to check it down and lose. The chances of hitting this bonus is much higher than a jackpot, so I think it makes sense. If I were to do this and win, I would give back whatever my opponent lost. But I don't think I've ever seen anyone do that.
KL03 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2017, 10:18 PM   #45
chillrob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chillrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: under a dark cloud
Posts: 9,778
Re: 20/40 - Chop or Naw?

I think in most rooms only a pocket pair or suited connector can win a jackpot. And that has to be true for both players in the blinds. So it doesn't happen that much. Usually one player sneakily asks if the other has a jackpit hand, and they only play it out if both do.
chillrob is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2017, 10:31 AM   #46
LifeRebooted
journeyman
 
LifeRebooted's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 340
Re: 20/40 - Chop or Naw?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KL03 View Post
However, during an aces cracked promotion, I have seen players not chop aces, hoping to check it down and lose. The chances of hitting this bonus is much higher than a jackpot, so I think it makes sense. If I were to do this and win, I would give back whatever my opponent lost. But I don't think I've ever seen anyone do that.
A lot of rooms don't allow you to pass chips. IMO the way it should play is that if the second player can beat aces on the river, they bet so that they get 2 BB less rake and the player with aces gets the jackpot.
LifeRebooted is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2017, 05:18 PM   #47
lawdude
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 9,947
Re: 20/40 - Chop or Naw?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
I think in most rooms only a pocket pair or suited connector can win a jackpot. And that has to be true for both players in the blinds. So it doesn't happen that much. Usually one player sneakily asks if the other has a jackpit hand, and they only play it out if both do.
Since we talk about jackpot hands and angling here, allow me to tell one of my favorite stories.

I was in Commerce once and the hand folded around to the SB and me, in the BB.

As many players do, the guy asked "do you have a jackpot hand?".

I looked at my cards and said "no".

The guy then said "I raise, then".

(Since that hand, my answer to the jackpot hand question is always "no".)
lawdude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2017, 05:30 PM   #48
chillrob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chillrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: under a dark cloud
Posts: 9,778
Re: 20/40 - Chop or Naw?

My answer is always "I haven't looked". If there is a possibility for me to chop, I never look at my hand until someone else has put money in the pot. I still want and expect to chop regardless of the hands. If someone refused, then I would never chop with them again, but I've never had this happen.
chillrob is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2017, 10:51 AM   #49
leavesofliberty
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 5,736
Re: 20/40 - Chop or Naw?

By offering to chop, your opponent already admits to having negligible prospects or not being able to beat the rake.
leavesofliberty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2017, 01:16 PM   #50
lawdude
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 9,947
Re: 20/40 - Chop or Naw?

Quote:
Originally Posted by leavesofliberty View Post
By offering to chop, your opponent already admits to having negligible prospects or not being able to beat the rake.
I routinely will chop with anyone in any size game.

And trust me, most of these people do NOT want to play me heads up.
lawdude is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online