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Old 06-01-2021, 04:10 AM   #1
checkraisdraw
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20/40 ATs

6 handed. Second in raises. I 3bet the button with AThh. He calls.

Flop J42r one heart

Check, I bet, he raises, I call

Turn J424 full rainbow

He bets, I fold

Seems fine but just wanted to make sure.
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Old 06-01-2021, 05:20 AM   #2
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Re: 20/40 ATs

I call this down against players who c/r and barrel with backdoors like they should. But this spot is severely underbluffed by most people. So folding the turn is fine unless the opponent is very strong or very spewy.
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Old 06-01-2021, 11:37 AM   #3
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Re: 20/40 ATs

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Originally Posted by Unguarded View Post
I call this down against players who c/r and barrel with backdoors like they should. But this spot is severely underbluffed by most people. So folding the turn is fine unless the opponent is very strong or very spewy.
I don't even know what this response means. You want to call down vs HJ's backdoor range unless they are really strong? Wouldn't this be one of the worst Ahi's to do that with given we have a T, which blocks QT/T9? Much better question to ask yourself is what does your opponents value XR range look like? Is A4s+ in there or not? Personally I lean towards XX flop.
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Old 06-01-2021, 08:15 PM   #4
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Re: 20/40 ATs

Hi SonicJaxx. I think my last sentence was perhaps confusing. What I meant was "So folding the turn is fine unless villain is either a very strong player or a very spewy player."

I got curious and ran a solve on this spot in Simple Postflop using my own HJ and BTN 3bet ranges. The solver bets AhTh 100% on this flop, calls the check-raise 100%, calls the turn 100%, and then calls 60ish% on bricky rivers. I feel like this supports what I said. It does, however, fold AhTh 100% of the time on a Q or K river.

I am arguing that most players (especially at 20/40) will not bluff c/r the flop anywhere close to GTO. They will massively underbluff this spot. Against these typical players, I think folding the turn is fine and best. But against players who c/r the flop with a GTOish amount of backdoor draws as they should, I would call down.

It does turn out to be a mixed strategy on bricky rivers, but I would lean towards calling since I feel like people who will c/r bluff in this spot on the flop will somewhat overdo it as an exploit against the typical player who overfolds against aggression on such a dry board. I hope that makes more sense.

Last edited by Unguarded; 06-01-2021 at 08:21 PM.
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Old 06-02-2021, 04:27 AM   #5
checkraisdraw
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Re: 20/40 ATs

Thanks for running the sim. My read on this guy was that he played pretty straightforward and not tricky. The 3 to a straight flush+a seemed like enough to call the checkraise, and I didn’t think splitting my range on this board makes sense.
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Old 06-03-2021, 09:54 AM   #6
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Re: 20/40 ATs

I feel like this one is pretty player dependent for me. I have a good sense in my game who is strong and who is spewy here. IMO most players in my MSLHE games aren’t CR here with back door draws. I’m probably just holding the turn against most players.
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Old 06-03-2021, 12:53 PM   #7
SonicJaxx
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Re: 20/40 ATs

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Originally Posted by Unguarded View Post
I got curious and ran a solve on this spot in Simple Postflop using my own HJ and BTN 3bet ranges. The solver bets AhTh 100% on this flop, calls the check-raise 100%, calls the turn 100%, and then calls 60ish% on bricky rivers. I feel like this supports what I said. It does, however, fold AhTh 100% of the time on a Q or K river.
I have spent countless hours watching bots play SH, they aren't big on checking flops. Vs a human I would rather calldown a K than a Q or T. I mean what KX is in a human villain bluff XR range?
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Old 06-03-2021, 04:30 PM   #8
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Re: 20/40 ATs

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I have spent countless hours watching bots play SH, they aren't big on checking flops. Vs a human I would rather calldown a K than a Q or T. I mean what KX is in a human villain bluff XR range?
KQ, AK, KJ, KT w/backdoors, k9 w/ backdoors, k3s, k5s
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Old 06-04-2021, 02:35 AM   #9
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Re: 20/40 ATs

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Originally Posted by checkraisdraw View Post
KQ, AK, KJ, KT w/backdoors, k9 w/ backdoors, k3s, k5s
First you tell me we are playing the hand vs a strong player now you tell me they are opening K9o, K5s and K3s in the HJ. Strong players don't open 25% in the HJ.

Do you really think he XR's AK for value after getting 3bet by HJ? KJ is TPSK. I feel like there are 2 trains of thought in this thread and we aren't really helping each other.
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Old 06-04-2021, 07:42 AM   #10
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Re: 20/40 ATs

I fail to see where I said he was a strong player.
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Old 06-05-2021, 03:49 PM   #11
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Re: 20/40 ATs

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It does, however, fold AhTh 100% of the time on a Q or K river.
when I think of the hands I beat that cr this flop, its gotta be like kqs, q10s. maybe offsuit too. maybe a3s, a5s.

are people really doing this with 56s and 35s?

anyway, I think as humans there is really no way to play this properly as a rule. we simply wont see this situation often enough, nor be able to recognize it as such and put it in a bundle of likewise situations.

so its just better to be "player dependent". which means look for a reason to either call and fold and then go with it. and by a "reason", I mean he looks likes he bluffing, or hes and old guy, or I hate this person so **** him.
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Old 06-07-2021, 12:11 PM   #12
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Re: 20/40 ATs

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Originally Posted by SonicJaxx View Post
First you tell me we are playing the hand vs a strong player now you tell me they are opening K9o, K5s and K3s in the HJ. Strong players don't open 25% in the HJ.
Heheh (solver opens 27% hijack)
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Old 06-07-2021, 05:38 PM   #13
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Re: 20/40 ATs

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Heheh (solver opens 27% hijack)
Lol if the solver played in a game, people would think that it was the biggest spot.
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Old 06-10-2021, 11:02 AM   #14
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Re: 20/40 ATs

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Lol if the solver played in a game, people would think that it was the biggest spot.

I am kinda pessimistic on the health of poker in general but yeah you just summed up why it will last awhile longer.
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Old 06-12-2021, 10:38 AM   #15
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Re: 20/40 ATs

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I am kinda pessimistic on the health of poker in general but yeah you just summed up why it will last awhile longer.
Why are you pessimistic?
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Old 06-12-2021, 02:56 PM   #16
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Re: 20/40 ATs

Technology is such that the solution to holdem type games should be accessible from a smart phone within a year or two, not too far behind that for omaha games.
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Old 06-21-2021, 09:36 PM   #17
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Re: 20/40 ATs

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Technology is such that the solution to holdem type games should be accessible from a smart phone within a year or two, not too far behind that for omaha games.
For O/8 someone would have to put in the work to build out the solves into an app and their prob isn’t the market for that…Holdem yeah they already have NL app trainers and since the limit tree is smaller…
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