Fair enough !
Is it too much to ask for an approximation of what range % you gave CO ?
Surely it’s more than 35-40%?
Thx

42%... Button open is 46%.

42% in the co seems a bit optimistic

it's too much

I've been called worse than optimistic before . What do you have for a default CO open range % BK?

low thirties

Roger, how about on the Button?

low forties

I see people open that many hands in the 40 game but at the typical LA 20/40 I would be surprised to see people open more than 30% in that spot. Does that change the optimal 3bet range in your opinion?

Yes a bit simplistic but as players get looser you 3 bet looser and if they are tighter you 3 bet tighter.

NIT alert!!

I feel like I need to get in the lab and do some solver work. I’m not sure how I would proceed in these extremely wide range scenarios, even though I do love playing shorthanded and am that loose in that situation. Maybe it’s also a mental game issue.

30% seems about right. I plugged in my range and it is 32%. There are a couple hands that I may not raise like 9To, Q9o if the button is agro. I would think at some point you are just taking too much the worst of it range on range in regards to 3 betting.

That being said, I've never used solvers. I've always felt intuitively that I should open up against some players and dial it back against others regardless of what the numbers say.

And against an open range of 30% you obviously shouldn't be 3betting 30%.

the dead money makes it so you don't want to only raise something with favorable equity against the open range but being out of position comes at a cost, the bb continues probably 10%ish of the time and the opener is 4betting with the stronger hands.

Would have to plug it into a solver to know exactly what 3bet range is optimal is but it's probably around 20% which makes T9s borderline.

I usually 3bet CO with 33’s+, A2s+, A8o+, K9s+, KJo+, Q10s+, qjo, j9s+, T9s. Against some I would 3bet more against some I would 3bet less. I think good 3betting candidates are more suited hands that have good playability but little sdv, which would give me better board coverage. However, OOP these hands feel like thwy are too loose.

It's interesting we have some different results from our own homework. I was thinking about how this could be and believe it may be due to some assumptions I have baked in related to live play. For example, I assume no 3 bet range from the BB when non SB opens (GTO model has one). I assume no SB smooth calling range after an in position open (GTO model has one).

Basically I've baked in these heuristics to the simulations to help account for the practical nature of live 40+ play. These 'mistakes' seem to allow for wider opening ranges to take advantage of these live 'leaks', which really just represent the normal group think of live play these days. I'm not sure others included in this thread have adjusted for these in their homework and I can see arguments both for and against the inclusion of these simplifying heuristics. Great discussion! Thanks guys.

Which is why I think xr river if turn went check-check has merit

Really? I always operated under the assumption that these plays were correct. What is an optimal bb 3bet range and what is an optimal sb cold calling range?

So then aren’t your assumptions going to lead you to opening too loose if people do not follow your assumptions?

The sims utilize largely mixed strategies in these spots to balance. Against a cut off open the models I have smooth call in the SB ~ 6% and 3 bet out of the BB ~ 10%.

This is true. If my theory is correct, It seems I'm exploiting my opponents lack of GTO preflop play with a wider opening range, say 4-5% wider. If opponents start changing their play and begin 3 betting out of the BB I should tighten up a few %. I think over time we will begin to see more players utilizing these strategies, which should force me to play tighter ranges like those recommended previously in this thread.

Again, all of that assumes we play equally well post flop. If we play better than our opponents we should be playing marginally more hands to capitalize on our advantage.

Smooth call the top 6% of hands? So AK suited would be a smooth call?

Not top 6%, more middling hands like A2s or QJo. It utilizes a mixed strategy, sometimes calling with these hands, sometimes raising. Strong hands like AK will always raise.

Wow, I wouldn't have thought that. Isn't that severely capping your range when you call out of the sb?

I highly doubt them partitioning a small number of their 3bets into flats has enough of an impact to alter your profitable opening range by 4-5%. I wouldn’t be surprised if it altered it by less than 1%.

Bb choosing not to ever 3bet is probably a lot more significant.

HU I do not 3bet bb against a raiser outside the blinds. Is that a mistake?

Against a standard player who will C bet 100% it's good. Against players who check back a lot, or spite 4 bet, or are weak tight, it's probably better to have a 3 bet range.

I'd 3 bet the top of my range against the spite 4 bettor. I'd call more with my less showdownable hands.

I'd 3 bet a bigger chunk of my range against a fit or fold or weaker player.

I may switch it up against someone who checks back the flop a lot. It depends on whether they are balanced with their check backs or not. It also depends on how often they will take a stab at the turn after the flop goes check check.