Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Mid-High Stakes Limit Discussions of mid-high stakes limit Texas Hold'em

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-27-2017, 10:30 PM   #51
chillrob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chillrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: under a dark cloud
Posts: 10,237
Re: 20/40 44 in the land of thin value

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montrealcorp View Post
All right wrong wording.
Weakest hand you call here while not raising
Not sure if you mean me as V1 or what I would do if I were here.
chillrob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2017, 11:24 PM   #52
Montrealcorp
Pooh-Bah
 
Montrealcorp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 5,592
Re: 20/40 44 in the land of thin value

If you don't have 44
Montrealcorp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2017, 11:38 PM   #53
6MaxLHE
old hand
 
6MaxLHE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Parx Table 27
Posts: 1,704
Re: 20/40 44 in the land of thin value

You are underestimating your equity OTT vs. villian's ranges. We are getting 18:1 with a set and usually a 5 and obv. a 4 will scoop. With even 9% equity we have to see the river.
6MaxLHE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 12:56 AM   #54
Montrealcorp
Pooh-Bah
 
Montrealcorp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 5,592
Re: 20/40 44 in the land of thin value

What bother me the most is , if we fold this hand for 1 bet on the turn we simply have no hands to call with for 1 bet back to us.
Every better hand we would of jam the flop...

And saying we draw to 1 out in 18-1 spot is a pretty big assumption imo.
In big pot I see sometime some play that makes no sense .
I mean around 5-7% of the time does not take much to be wrong.

When I'm calling flop, i expected to see something like this happening, if I would fold now for 1 bet , it is pretty clear the flop call was a mistake.

Ps: if we really have 1 out, shouldn't we get some value (beside winning the pot) when we hit the river for tilting your opponents for later hands

Last edited by Montrealcorp; 07-28-2017 at 01:05 AM.
Montrealcorp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 02:07 AM   #55
chillrob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chillrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: under a dark cloud
Posts: 10,237
Re: 20/40 44 in the land of thin value

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6MaxLHE View Post
You are underestimating your equity OTT vs. villian's ranges. We are getting 18:1 with a set and usually a 5 and obv. a 4 will scoop. With even 9% equity we have to see the river.
You're just wrong about this, if you're meaning if V1 had just called the turn raise. I know because I was V1. I actually had flopped the nut straight, so I reraised, and hero was correct to call. If I had just called the raise, the only thing I could have had would have been 9 combos of bigger sets, and possibly one 2 pair combo, as mentioned earlier. Actually the turn card may have been the 4 of hearts instead, in which case I would not even have had any 2 pair combos, but I made it a diamond here to give hero as many outs as possible, and it still comes up to just 1.1.

My whole point is how the range changes depending on whether I call or reraise. If I reraise I have a straight and hero is very live. If I just call hero almost always has only one out.
chillrob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 02:09 AM   #56
chillrob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chillrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: under a dark cloud
Posts: 10,237
Re: 20/40 44 in the land of thin value

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montrealcorp View Post
What bother me the most is , if we fold this hand for 1 bet on the turn we simply have no hands to call with for 1 bet back to us.
Every better hand we would of jam the flop...
I'm not sure why this matters, but I think hero should have lots of medium card flush draws that would not have 3-bet the flop - why would he want to push out the early position players and lower the odds of his draw? The better play would be to call the 2 bets on the flop, and then call any bets on the turn.
chillrob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 02:45 AM   #57
asmitty
Pooh-Bah
 
asmitty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: betting if checked to
Posts: 4,196
Re: 20/40 44 in the land of thin value

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
Nope, V1 would have reraised with even the top one card straight and could not have had the bottom one card straight. I know because I was V1, but it makes sense anyway. I don't think V2 could have had the top straight the way it was played, and even if I knew I was chopping, I would reraise to charge the draws of hero.

Pot odds are very important. But even 18-1 odds no good if you have one out...
V2 can easily have any 8x hand when he raises the turn. It's probably the first hand I'd put him on.

V1 can also easily have the naked 8x when he calls the turn. Why not? Seems like a totally normal way to play, say, 87 or 88 on this texture. A lot of players don't automatically re-raise the turn to charge draws, especially when there is a risk that someone else is freerolling you or a possibility that hero has a made hand that will overcall river UI.

Last edited by asmitty; 07-28-2017 at 02:53 AM.
asmitty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 02:50 AM   #58
chillrob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chillrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: under a dark cloud
Posts: 10,237
Re: 20/40 44 in the land of thin value

Quote:
Originally Posted by asmitty View Post
V2 can easily have any 8x hand. So can V1. And it's very plausible that V1 can 3bet the turn knowing that he and and V2 are chopping up hero's money (particularly if V1 has 8cXc, which is a totally reasonable hand given the action).
Not sure if you're trying to say you disagree me here or not. I definitely think V2 had 8x. And yes, V2 would 3-bet with 8x, so hero should call. But if V2 does not have 8x, that basically means he has a bigger set, and he will not 3-bet, so hero should fold.
chillrob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 02:53 AM   #59
chillrob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chillrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: under a dark cloud
Posts: 10,237
Re: 20/40 44 in the land of thin value

Quote:
Originally Posted by asmitty View Post
V2 can easily have any 8x hand when he raises the turn. It's probably the first hand I'd put him on.

V1 can also easily have the naked 8x when he calls the turn. Why not? Seems like a totally normal way to play, say, 87 or 88 on this texture.
Well, you just changed your post to disagree with me after I replied and quoted your original version. And no, V1 cannot have 8x when he calls the turn. As you said pre-revision, he would raise to charge hero even knowing he was splitting the pot with V2 (and especially if he had a flush draw to go along with it).
chillrob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 03:19 AM   #60
6MaxLHE
old hand
 
6MaxLHE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Parx Table 27
Posts: 1,704
Re: 20/40 44 in the land of thin value

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
You're just wrong about this, if you're meaning if V1 had just called the turn raise. I know because I was V1. I actually had flopped the nut straight, so I reraised, and hero was correct to call. If I had just called the raise, the only thing I could have had would have been 9 combos of bigger sets, and possibly one 2 pair combo, as mentioned earlier. Actually the turn card may have been the 4 of hearts instead, in which case I would not even have had any 2 pair combos, but I made it a diamond here to give hero as many outs as possible, and it still comes up to just 1.1.

My whole point is how the range changes depending on whether I call or reraise. If I reraise I have a straight and hero is very live. If I just call hero almost always has only one out.
You can't have a hand like 87, 86, or 76 here when you flat call the turn raise? Sorry but just b/c you call two bets on the turn doesn't narrow your range to higher sets. Set over set just doesn't happen that often and two pair hands still have enough equity to call the turn raise. Especially given the extra bets they will earn when when they fill up.

Last edited by 6MaxLHE; 07-28-2017 at 03:29 AM.
6MaxLHE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 03:33 AM   #61
chillrob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chillrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: under a dark cloud
Posts: 10,237
Re: 20/40 44 in the land of thin value

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6MaxLHE View Post
You can't have a hand like 87, 86, or 76 here when you flat call the turn raise?
Nope, only 76 if I also had a flush draw, or I would have checked the turn, so I gave that one possible combo. I would have definitely 3-bet 87. If I somehow could have had 86 I would have 3-bet that as well, but actually I would have folded it preflop.
chillrob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 03:49 AM   #62
Montrealcorp
Pooh-Bah
 
Montrealcorp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 5,592
Re: 20/40 44 in the land of thin value

Ok that's fine chillrob but a lot of play you advocate seem to concern you as v1.
But even tho you seem to advocate your line of actions as standard, from my pov I might not jam only 1 card straight for example on the turn or with only 2 pair ....

That might explain why we don't see this hand the same way for the person holding 44.
Montrealcorp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 03:54 AM   #63
chillrob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chillrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: under a dark cloud
Posts: 10,237
Re: 20/40 44 in the land of thin value

Sure, other people might have played the hand differently than me, but I think most live 20/40 players would 3-bet the turn with any straight and just call the raise with weaker hands. And I described myself as the villain pretty well.

Of course this is a very unusual hand, and an even more unusual turn spot; I'm not saying it will be applicable many times. I just found it interesting because it was unusual. But I do think there is a greater lesson here; even though saving bets seems to be passe in this forum, if you can occasionally put players on a very small range, you can save yourself some bets.
chillrob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 12:08 PM   #64
asmitty
Pooh-Bah
 
asmitty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: betting if checked to
Posts: 4,196
Re: 20/40 44 in the land of thin value

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
Well, you just changed your post to disagree with me after I replied and quoted your original version. And no, V1 cannot have 8x when he calls the turn. As you said pre-revision, he would raise to charge hero even knowing he was splitting the pot with V2 (and especially if he had a flush draw to go along with it).
I realized I misread the action. Not trying to be difficult.
asmitty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 03:38 PM   #65
chillrob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chillrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: under a dark cloud
Posts: 10,237
Re: 20/40 44 in the land of thin value

I didn't think you were trying to be difficult, but I think you read the situation absolutely right the first time, then realized it didn't support the conclusion you were predisposed to support (ie not folding a good hand for one bet in a big pot).
chillrob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 07:38 PM   #66
dead..money
banned
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 176
Re: 20/40 44 in the land of thin value

Quote:
Originally Posted by lawdude View Post
I continue to think that until someone analyzes the actual ranges of the opponents who have already acted, blanket statements about the flop call being "good" or "bad" have very little to back them up. The flop is a Stove problem.
You dont need stove to figure out this flop is a fold. If UtG opems 2 cold calls amd you have 97o on the button would you say its a fold or you need to stove it?

Once we know villian 1 is an older white guy thats super nitty and playing for a living we dont need stove. He has sets, 88-99 and like Ac9c at worst
dead..money is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2017, 04:57 PM   #67
rodeo
veteran
 
rodeo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: i'll tell you when i get there
Posts: 3,058
Re: 20/40 44 in the land of thin value

I was the hero in this hand and made a marginal flop call. It's probably bad, but I think it's close either way.

I agree with chillrob that the turn is an interesting spot. And because he 3 bet I was able to narrow his range to exactly 3 combos of 89s and V2 to 8x, which made the turn an easy call for me. It also made the river an easy raise when the board paired and I got to win a big pot.

You know what they say, "play bad, get lucky."
rodeo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2017, 06:31 PM   #68
dead..money
banned
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 176
Re: 20/40 44 in the land of thin value

It's an oldie but a goodie post. The classic post a hand where me make a mistake followed by the gotcha reveal, we are actually the hero and villain is another 2+2er
dead..money is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online