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15/30 Watching more hands

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04-25-2011 , 09:56 PM

swifttarrow

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Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 3,269

15/30 Oaks

Another hand I saw, wanted to see what people's opinions are.

MP opens, player 3!'s K

from BTN, sb cc's, MP calls.

Flop: J

sb checks, MP donks, BTN raises, sb cc's, MP 3!'s, BTN calls, sb calls.

Turn: 9

sb checks, MP bets, BTN calls, sb c'raises, MP curses and folds, BTN calls.

River: K

sb bets, BTN raises.

Thoughts on BTN's play? I have no reads on players, but my questions are:
1. Should BTN cap flop?
2. Should BTN raise river?

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04-25-2011 , 10:00 PM

surfdoc

banned

Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 4,758

1. sometimes
2. FFS no way without some sicko read

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04-25-2011 , 10:21 PM

MitchL

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Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 8,521

3) Should OP provide reads?

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04-25-2011 , 11:26 PM

Mr Rick

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I like BTN's flop line. It allows for a "safe" turn raise putting it to SB. Still with a flush draw SB will call.

I wouldn't raise river. Sometimes its against a set and works. But mostly SB has the flush.

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04-25-2011 , 11:51 PM

jesse8888

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Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 16,685

I'd cap the flop we have kings.

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04-26-2011 , 12:03 AM

swifttarrow

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Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 3,269

Quote:

Originally Posted by MitchL

3) Should OP provide reads?

Incredibly limited. I really struggle to develop sound reads on players from whom I can't see hole cards. MP is an asian lady that strikes me as a loose-passive, BTN is a short-stacker (which likely means he misses out on value and the likes), sb is by default terrible if he cc's out of the sb.

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04-26-2011 , 12:57 AM

jesse8888

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Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 16,685

Let me clarify...I think having the K

here is very important, and with it your equity is strong enough that capping the flop is justified.

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04-26-2011 , 04:18 PM

asmitty

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Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 4,607

Quote:

Originally Posted by swifttarrow

sb is by default terrible if he cc's out of the sb.

Seems like a pretty myopic read. I can think of plenty of spots where it's defensible to CC 2.5 bets as part of an overall balanced strategy.

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04-26-2011 , 07:54 PM

swifttarrow

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Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 3,269

asmitty - can you elaborate? I would've thought it's a clear cap or fold spot. Calling gives the BB great odds, and this pot is by no means multiway (so calling with pp's for set equity isn't an option). I haven't read WITHG in a very long while, but I thought it recommended capping or folding.

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04-26-2011 , 08:31 PM

#10

chillrob

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I think the most notable mistake is the turn, where KK has a clear fold the second time around. Maybe that was so obvious that you didn't ask about it?

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04-26-2011 , 10:45 PM

#11

Mr Rick

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Quote:

Originally Posted by chillrob

I think the most notable mistake is the turn, where KK has a clear fold the second time around. Maybe that was so obvious that you didn't ask about it?

2nd nut flush draw on the turn...

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04-27-2011 , 12:06 AM

#12

chillrob

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Rick

2nd nut flush draw on the turn...

Oops I did miss that...

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04-27-2011 , 01:35 AM

#13

jzpiano

Flip King

Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 5,832

I'm capping the flop and def. not raising the river here.

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04-28-2011 , 01:31 PM

#14

callipygian

slowrolled by tpiranha!

Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 19,880

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Rick

I like BTN's flop line.

I think it depends on having the K

or not. When we do, we can easily call a turn c/r.

Cap flop, call river.

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04-28-2011 , 01:34 PM

#15

Captain R

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Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 7,574

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesse8888

I think having the K

here is very important

I'm not seeing the importance of the second nut King. Are you saying for pure backdoor equity-ness?

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04-28-2011 , 01:52 PM

#16

asmitty

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Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 4,607

Quote:

Originally Posted by swifttarrow

To be clear, taking a cap-or-fold approach from the SB is not a leak and is probably the easiest way to balance. If I'm not concerned about balancing, though, there are some hands that I sometimes CC here just because they're too good to fold and are reasonably easy to play postflop (KQs, AJs, 88-TT, and others depending on the ranges of the opener and 3better). In more multiway pots, I will CC all sorts of suited connected stuff just because I don't easily pass up on kingmaker pots. Sometimes I cap with them, but I'm not comfortable saying that coldcalling here is *terrible*.

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04-28-2011 , 01:54 PM

#17

jambony

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 355

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain R

I'm not seeing the importance of the second nut King. Are you saying for pure backdoor equity-ness?

Also doubles your clean outs to a set / takes a spade out of the deck for people on the flush draw

As for the hand river is an obvious call and so is turn, although a lot of flush draws in that spot have the As.

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04-28-2011 , 07:50 PM

#18

callipygian

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Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 19,880

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain R

I'm not seeing the importance of the second nut King. Are you saying for pure backdoor equity-ness?

It reduces the number of (pair+flush draw) combos that people can have. Same with having the top card be part of the flush draw. With KK no spade on a J

, for instance, K

isn't in horrible shape. Even if nobody has K

, it hitting can be the ******* card. K

K on a J

board allows you to move forward with far more confidence, even if the equity difference isn't that big.

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04-28-2011 , 10:12 PM

#19

3rdCheckRaise

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Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 2,944

I think we should cap this flop about 80% of the time. Raising river is pretty ******ed and unless you are facing some ******s, but in that case you should cap the flop every time.

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04-29-2011 , 05:27 AM

#20

spino1i

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Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 8,713

BTN plays the same as I do minus the very poor river raise.

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05-01-2011 , 10:40 AM

#21

Mr Yaba Daba Doo

journeyman

Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 279

Quote:

Originally Posted by swifttarrow

15/30 Oaks

Another hand I saw, wanted to see what people's opinions are.

MP opens, player 3!'s K

from BTN, sb cc's, MP calls.

Flop: J

sb checks, MP donks, BTN raises, sb cc's, MP 3!'s, BTN calls, sb calls.

Turn: 9

sb checks, MP bets, BTN calls, sb c'raises, MP curses and folds, BTN calls.

River: K

sb bets, BTN raises.

Thoughts on BTN's play? I have no reads on players, but my questions are:
1. Should BTN cap flop?
2. Should BTN raise river?

grunch

i would cap the flop ...

if he donked into me on the turn I would prob just call ... and I would call river too.

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05-05-2011 , 10:14 PM

#22

AlanBostick

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Quote:

Originally Posted by swifttarrow

sb is by default terrible if he cc's out of the sb.

Quote:

Originally Posted by asmitty

Seems like a pretty myopic read. I can think of plenty of spots where it's defensible to CC 2.5 bets as part of an overall balanced strategy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by swifttarrow

Quote:

Originally Posted by asmitty

asmitty, you are right that there almost certainly are good, balanced winning strategies that include cold-calling two bets and a chip in the small blind in spots like this. Coldcalling here is clearly not necessarily terrible in abstract.

But seriously, which is more likely, on the basis of this one sample: SB is excellent, playing a balanced strategy, or is just another idiot? Bayes' Theorem says to me that this player is even more likely to be bad than a random player on whom we have no read at all.

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