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Spew or not vs SB limper Spew or not vs SB limper

02-12-2010 , 03:54 AM
Villain is 40/17/0.8 over 150 hands
I don't discount Ax from his range is just that his range is sooo wide when he openlimps SB in a 10/15 structure
And as I raised preflop I thought I can credibly represent Ax and this is exactly how I would play it
To tell you the truth I thought about 3-betting river but I thought that the chances were too big he 4-bet bluffed or actually had Ax or some random crap that beats me
So was this too much spew or should I have spewed some more?

Poker Stars $15/$30 Limit Hold'em - 5 players - View hand 531640
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

Pre Flop: (1.667 SB) Hero is BB with 7 T
3 folds, SB calls, Hero raises, SB calls

Flop: (4 SB) 6 A A (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero calls

Turn: (4 BB) 2 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero 3-bets, SB calls

River: (10 BB) 8 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero folds

Final Pot: 12 BB
SB wins 11.933 BB
(Rake: $2.00)
02-14-2010 , 02:12 AM
Pretty big spew in a small pot. I prob wouldnt raise pf but its player dependant.
02-14-2010 , 02:56 AM
Just terrible.
02-14-2010 , 04:04 AM
gosh
02-14-2010 , 04:30 AM
Sick trifecta, imo.
02-14-2010 , 12:16 PM
3 bet river IMO.
02-15-2010 , 11:37 AM
It's true preflop raise is debatable but someone like Bryce recommends the raise often in these spots. I don't have his postflop skills but once we're on the flop we just c-bet/fold AA6 to the limper? Because that's what I get from all the one word/liners
So I would say raising preflop is bad, not terrible, what's terrible postflop? Where would you fold?

It seems that what to do on a board where you have full house is more interesting to debate than what to do in spots when you have nothing
02-15-2010 , 12:59 PM
What do you put the limper on when he puts in this much action on this type of board? Are ever expecting him to have a pair and fold it? A pure bluff with no pair no draw? Youre putting in a lot of bets to win a small pot which you made huge by spazzing so hard. The idea of trying to pick up smallish pots with aggression is very good, this is just bad.
02-15-2010 , 04:45 PM
i don't mind pf at all really but i just dispute the thought process of like 'he shouldn't have anything so i am going to put infinite action in to win this pot'

if i called the flop checkraise i would check back the turn and then be unhappy if i rivered a pair and he bet.
02-15-2010 , 06:40 PM
I understand the point that I shouldn't fight over a small pot but no one tells me where is the exact point where I should give up (except Babar)
And by this notion you should always just play fit or fold when SB limps because it's always a small pot
Preflop - yes it's bad, but it's not like you don't see such a raise in some videos(Bryce is the best example)
Flop - standard c-bet and if you tell me I should fold 100% to his c/r I would be the easiest guy to be bluffed in the world - I see fish bluff raise this board all the time
Turn - again it seems an easy bet for me, of all the times fish try to c/r the flop they give up on some of them, seems only natural, this was the idea of floating the flop, if I check this turn then I should just give up on the flop
Probably at his c/r on the turn I have to fold but it seemed too fishy to me

I would understand if someone told me "hey fish all the good players would play this hand like this: A->B->C so there's no reason to discuss this stupid hand"
Maybe I just have a brainfart and can't see that A->B->C clearly
02-16-2010 , 09:22 AM
While the concept about fighting for small pots is good, people are more aware that its important and more willing to fight back now than when Bryce made most of his videos. The preflop raise is ok i dont mind it, i dont even mid the bet-call on the flop. But if we`re going to continue id rather do it on cards that give us some more equity. The pot is 8 sb on the turn, and youre willing to spend the same amount to try to win the pot, hoping that villain doesnt have a made hand he is willing to call down with, or that his draw misses.
02-17-2010 , 02:28 PM
Obv this hand is just terrible. I understand your thought process though. I think raising preflop is unnecessary but fine. I think bet-calling flop is ok. This guy is on the passive side though so if I ever fold, it would be against someone like him (usually someone more passive). I think once he checks turn, betting is fine unless you know he likes to go for the CR. After he checkraises though, doing anything other than folding is just ridiculous. Thinking about 3-betting the river is just totally absurd.
02-17-2010 , 05:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by runsick
Obv this hand is just terrible. I understand your thought process though. I think raising preflop is unnecessary but fine. I think bet-calling flop is ok. This guy is on the passive side though so if I ever fold, it would be against someone like him (usually someone more passive). I think once he checks turn, betting is fine unless you know he likes to go for the CR. After he checkraises though, doing anything other than folding is just ridiculous. Thinking about 3-betting the river is just totally absurd.
The way that hero has played the hand up until this point, im sure 3betting the river entered his mind.
02-17-2010 , 06:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahaus
I understand the point that I shouldn't fight over a small pot but no one tells me where is the exact point where I should give up (except Babar)
And by this notion you should always just play fit or fold when SB limps because it's always a small pot
Preflop - yes it's bad, but it's not like you don't see such a raise in some videos(Bryce is the best example)
Flop - standard c-bet and if you tell me I should fold 100% to his c/r I would be the easiest guy to be bluffed in the world - I see fish bluff raise this board all the time
Turn - again it seems an easy bet for me, of all the times fish try to c/r the flop they give up on some of them, seems only natural, this was the idea of floating the flop, if I check this turn then I should just give up on the flop
Probably at his c/r on the turn I have to fold but it seemed too fishy to me

I would understand if someone told me "hey fish all the good players would play this hand like this: A->B->C so there's no reason to discuss this stupid hand"
Maybe I just have a brainfart and can't see that A->B->C clearly
If someone is capable of putting in 5BB postflop with Thigh u have to understand that the others have to be totally braindead to try to bluff both flop, turn and river against this player. Any halfnormal person just wait for a hand and let u burn ur bankroll. And someone with the aggressionfactor 0,8 will NEVER EVER do it.

I mean, u dont even try to put this passive guy on a hand. Why do u think any1 will give u a serious answer?
02-22-2010 , 01:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahaus
I understand the point that I shouldn't fight over a small pot but no one tells me where is the exact point where I should give up
A default strategy, or an approximation of the GTO strategy if you will, is to bluff with a frequency where the size of your bluffing range is proportional to your value range with the odds you're laying for the opponent. When there's a lot of action, the pot becomes very large and your value range tightens up. This means that there are very few bluffing hands that would take this line.

If the example hand is representative of your strategy, you are bluffing way, way, way more than the equilibrium (ie. a balanced strategy). This means that you need to have a specific read that your opponent gives up easily and folds too much. You have to know that. No one of course plays exactly the equilibrium strategy, but if you go to one extreme with your strategy, you better have a good reason for that. Just being aggressive for the sake of it is not a good reason.

(Heisenberg used to post similar hands, but he had reads. And he still didn't always succeed with his lines.)

Bluffing is profitable and useful exploitation in many situations where the pot has grown big, but the idea is not to grow the pot for no particular reason. That's why semi-bluffs are so powerful. You have good reasons to bloat the pot and if you miss, you typically have a pretty good spot and odds to bluff with your missed hand.

And of course, there are other ways to make sure you don't get bluffed out of pots.

Quote:
And by this notion you should always just play fit or fold when SB limps because it's always a small pot
You shouldn't play fit or fold. You should base your strategy on the size of the pot. You should have a better plan than to just blindly re-bluff. Betting in a 4 bet pot with air is certainly a good idea typically. But betting, calling a raise and then bet/3-betting with air on turn is a whole another thing. You need to realize that your own distribution changes with every action you take.
02-23-2010 , 05:57 PM
Plays like this are the reason why I like to limp Ax in the sb and check Ax in the big.

      
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