Yeah, I should add that my general programming chops aren't too great, and that I feel somewhat lucky to have gotten this offer. I used the advice of let them hear your thought process if you can't come up with the right answer immediately.

Not sure if you remember me but I was the one who installed Linux for the first time a while back and loved it, lol.

The gameplan I'm thinking is to take this position to get experience, and on the side build up a nice github account, then try to get something more ideal a year or so from now??

Ideal as in not working in a strictly windows environment.

I'm a c# fan boy, love it. But as mentioned, the environment is a thorny issue. For me mainly the looming costs, but if you're working for someone else it's not really an issue. If you enjoy working with something, that's as good a reason as any to pursue it.

C# is fine and .Net is fine too. Here is one thing to think about, problem solving with c# and .Net should provide ample opportunity for comparison with languages and libraries you prefer IE you gain more insight.

if your code relies on the semantic difference between preincrement and postincrement, you're doing it wrong.

Sounds like a good plan. Make sure to be very strict about not working on anything private while potentially on the clock at your job though. That stuff can turn nasty fast. I'd also suggest letting any sideprojects rest for a bit and fully absorbing your job first. There's a lot of (interesting) stuff to learn and I'd rather become really good at C#/.Net than splitting between multiple gigs.
Like I said C# is a good language it won't damage you or instil any bad habits.

Any job working on actual code that is used in the real world is good. Take the job and learn as much as you can. Most importantly don't ever figure "is that language cool, ZOMG Windows sucks according to many people" into your decisions

Thanks so much for all the advice.

One last question about salary negotiations: Job is in the central NJ area, they offered me $45k, and I said I would like $50k. I kind of just got excited and spit out a number on the spot without thinking about it. They're calling me back today, but as I look more into it, it seems like even if they meet $50k, it's less than the average rate in the area I live. Looking around, it seems like the average rate for a junior c#/.net guy is ~$57k.

Am I stuck because I already said $50k? Or when they call back and say something like "okay we will meet your 50" or "how about 48?" do I have room to say "well, as I looked more into average salaries, it seems like that is slightly less than the market rate, yadda yadda yadda." Seems like I'd just be seetting myself up to piss people off if I did that?

I guess the best strategy would be to just eat it at first, but quickly prove myself there, etc, and hope/try to get a quick raise?

$1 has about the same purchasing power as £1 last time I looked. A £50k job as a fresh graduate in a junior development job sounds pretty damn good. Even if the average is $57k (again, I'm in the wrong job I guess lol!) taking a $7k hit for a company you really like is definitely +ev imo.

but 1 gbp = 1.6 usd -- are you saying stuff is that much more expensive over there? blimey!

If you can afford it money is really only a secondary concern for the entry level programming jobs. Learn and soak up as much as you can while not starving is a good enough strategy for the first 2-3 years imo. If you enjoy the job, learn a lot and get better you can command a pretty high salary for your second job (or renegotiate to a pretty solid one if you want to stay with this company)
50k$ in NJ is plenty fine imo even if you make less than every single programmer in the state...if that makes any sense

It's really hard to reup the ante after you gave a new number but most people don't even do that so you did well already.
If you want to negotiate more, do it on perks...an extra laptop that is not work only, more vacation days (should do this one for sure) etc.

Yeah I mean it's not that I care how much I make relative to others...just that I have an exorbitant amount in student loans and I can def. do it on $50k for the first few years...but closer to $60k would make life a lotttt more comfortable.

Extremely excited to start though, I start on Nov. 1st. Gotta teach myself some C# before then...Also was thinking of picking up this book: Clean Code. Any opinions?

Don't know about that book, but for C# specifically:



http://www.amazon.com/Depth-3rd-Edit...rds=john+skeet

The legend from Stack Overflow! Any answer he gives on c# on SO is pretty world class.

^ yeah that is the exact one I'm planning on ordering.

I think you are getting excellent advise in this thread. I think your stuck at $50k in the very near term. A simple goal while employed is to be highly productive. Productivity is a topic to consult with your manager about periodically. Code Complete is a decent book about software construction. You'll learn a lot from reviewing other developer code.

There are plenty of online and in print resources for C#, You can get free versions of visual studio. I downloaded visual studio 2013 ultimate rc for $0.

Yeah I would definitely like to send out a warm thanks to this subforum. Over the past 2 or so years of my education/job-search, I've always received accurate and timely advice for any and all questions I've come to this forum with.

Thanks guys!

adios-

What do you mean specifically by I'm naturally a very productive/hard worker and have always taken pride in my work...especially if it's something I find interesting. Do you mean consulting the manager periodically about how I can be more productive, asking him to review my productivity, or do you mean consulting him and saying "hey look how productive I am"?

Hey Derada, congtats.

I think C# and .Net is a great language. The only metric I would use in finding a job in that language is the simple truth that there are two kinds of .Net sites: Blazing Fast and Eye-Glazing slow.

In regards to learning, you simply cannot do better than the MSDN tutorial. It is great if you are looking to learn from the ground up, but it is pretty bad looking for a specific "How To" topic. I think the Skeet book is a bit over rated, sorry. If you want to learn how to set up the environment, use repeaters, and how the language logic works (Yes, you), then walk through the docs.

The only complaint I have about .Net is Visual Studio. I hate that thing, but perhaps you haven't been spoiled by other editors yet.

I use Sublime for all of my stuff I do in python/php/c, and love it.

After building a huge site in angular, and some other pet projects in angular, going back to writing jquery soup in a site I'm consulting for is such a massive pain in the ass.

I'm also terrible about trying to reinvent the wheel. I need to realize that everything is already built and open sourced. Sigh.

I'm sorry, what was that you said about open source again?

hahahah good catch

That's pretty much exactly why I consulted this thread. I've spent too much time browsing 4chan.org/g/ and know that I've been biased by the common views on that site, rather than evaluating things on my own and coming to my own decisions and opinions.

I dislike code that modifies the index variable of a for loop. I find its generally less clear and much easier to **** up than other alternatives.

I also agree that its a good idea to not rely on post/pre increment semantics.

++jjshabado_comment

woo hoo, they met my salary requirement...just signed the deal =D

I'm thinking of starting a thread/blog chronicling my journey into the development world from ground zero. Something like a "Diary of a Junior Developer".

I would have loved to read something like that when I was deciding to take CS up in school/apply for jobs.

Sound interesting?

Thanks for the comments guys. Yeah that was my gut feeling about pre/post increment but wanted to hear other opinions.

jjshabado,

That for loop should have been a while loop anyway since the index variable is always incremented inside the body. Is this more clear? The index is modified in either the if or else branches.

derada,

Congrats. Yeah the blog sounds like it would be a fun read.

Its better, but I still don't think there much value in having the embedded while loop and its definitely more error prone.

jaytorr,

let me clarify what jj meant (and i mean this is the nicest possible way):

the embedded loop is monstrously hideous. run from it and never look back.