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01-15-2013 , 03:52 PM
I think at minimum you need to explain why you specifically chose Clojure, other than you learned the basics of programming with SICP and took a liking to lisp.

Most people reading your article (the HN crowd type) will be way more concerned with why you're using Clojure to write your web sites rather than how because there's already so many tutorials out there but it's always interesting to hear why someone chose a specific technology.
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01-15-2013 , 04:12 PM
That's the problem: There are no tutorials for the type of thing I did.

I would simply give the honest answer: I used Clojure because I was too lazy to do it in another language. That is the exact reason people use PHP / Ruby / Python / ETC for 90% of their projects whether they are willing to admit it or not. The other reason is that I wanted to actually learn how to do things without using install scripts. Otherwise, there really is no good reason.

If people want to learn why Clojure is better than all other languages, they can go get the O'Reilly book, where every page enumerates why Clojure is clearly superior to every language on earth.

If that book doesn't sate your interest, you can read a ton of no-content blogs which will tell you why it is so great, but where's the proof? And what proof could I conceivably offer that is convincing unless I show some useful code? None. If you walk away and say: "I'd love to try that too," then I served the purpose of the page.
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01-15-2013 , 04:31 PM
<Web> programming is neat because it's not just about is language A better than language B by itself.

It's that + is language A's library support also good? How good is the documentation for the most popular libs? Is the IRC channel booming or dead? How hard/easy is it to find and use libs?

All of those things have nothing to do with syntax or the run speed of the language (stuff covered in an O'Reilly book) but they are crazy important.

If clojure does well in that dept., that might be good enough for your "why". You could just explain a bit about the above and also throw in something like it was good enough that you didn't feel compelled into learning a new language.
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01-15-2013 , 07:51 PM
I pondered this, and no, I don't think I should use a "why" justification. I know I change my mind a ton, but in this case, you're probably talking to a brick wall, though I do see your point. (show, don't tell)
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01-15-2013 , 08:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoe Lace
I read an article the other week where someone claimed to be interviewing CS graduates as well as other self proclaimed developers for a programming position and about 80% of the candidates failed the fizzbuzz test.

They either walked out of the room instantly or gave up after some extended amount of time.

Does anyone have any experience as interviewers where they watched someone with a mile long resume of credentials get tripped up on pretty easy interview questions?
I've done a couple dozen interviews, and I've definitely had people give me some blank stares on fizz-buzz level questions. I've also seen some incredibly bad implementations. I had one guy with a PHD in Comp Sci and 12 years of web development experience who couldn't write even the simplest of code. One of the questions he failed on was:

Quote:
Update the below SQL query to return the count of rows in the table
Code:
SELECT * FROM table
Far too many people claim to be developers and can't code for ****.
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01-15-2013 , 08:51 PM
Does anyone else lose respect for Linkedin every time someone they know adds a skill to their profile? "Agile Methodologies" my ass.
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01-15-2013 , 08:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zurvan
Far too many people claim to be developers and can't code for ****.
Quizzing people on syntax and asking for memorization isn't the best way to judge a developer.
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01-15-2013 , 09:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scary_Tiger
Quizzing people on syntax and asking for memorization isn't the best way to judge a developer.
knowing the SQL for number of rows in a table is hardly arbitrary syntax and memorization. there is no possible way a good web developer could fail that test.
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01-15-2013 , 09:07 PM
Cliffs from a jr web developer(4 months on the job) with too much work, who thinks he will get fired
-I ( and 5 other web developers) have too much work
-I've worked 55-65 hours a week for last month trying to make deadlines(Including pretty much non stop during a week long christmas break)
-Cant get extensions on project due thursday, will send out a 75-80% of what a intended website was supposed to be
-Ive been creating 3 new projects while trying to update/make adjustments to multiple sites(last week Ive pretty much had to ignore any updates to work 100% on the new sites)
-I'm partially to blame as I haven't been perfect on the projects

I've never been so anxy/nervous in my life? Shuold I be worried?
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01-15-2013 , 09:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gaming_mouse
knowing the SQL for number of rows in a table is hardly arbitrary syntax and memorization. there is no possible way a good web developer could fail that test.
Disagree, that's all it is. You think the guy doesn't know how to count or call a function? I mean come on.
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01-15-2013 , 09:11 PM
@dave, it wasn't show. It was more of a show and tell together. Then people have this really nice source of information with the reasoning behind it. Maybe the tutorial stuff is enough though, if you're giving some reasoning on why you do specific things and how doing something like that is really easy in clojure.

@Zurvan, that is pretty bad for having so much experience. Did he at least say something like "I know what to do, I just forgot the syntax. I would Google it?".
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01-15-2013 , 09:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scary_Tiger
Disagree, that's all it is. You think the guy doesn't know how to count or call a function? I mean come on.
huh?

maybe you're trolling or joking or whatever, but in case you're not i think anyone who has actually worked as a web dev would have written and read "select count(*) ..." so many times that it's impossible they would not know that by heart.
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01-15-2013 , 09:14 PM
Maybe the guy spent 12 years using various ORMs and forgot all of the raw SQL. I can't imagine that happening though.

12 years is so much experience. I feel like someone with that knowledge would have evaluated raw SQL so much in either logs or when profiling queries.
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01-15-2013 , 09:40 PM
I would like to code Python / use an interpreter using computers at my school. However, they do not have Python or an IDE installed, and as a student I do not have permission to download and install anything.

Is there a way to code in Python and or use a Python interpreter at school using a flash drive? Using another method?
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01-15-2013 , 10:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tercet
Cliffs from a jr web developer(4 months on the job) with too much work, who thinks he will get fired
-I ( and 5 other web developers) have too much work
-I've worked 55-65 hours a week for last month trying to make deadlines(Including pretty much non stop during a week long christmas break)
-Cant get extensions on project due thursday, will send out a 75-80% of what a intended website was supposed to be
-Ive been creating 3 new projects while trying to update/make adjustments to multiple sites(last week Ive pretty much had to ignore any updates to work 100% on the new sites)
-I'm partially to blame as I haven't been perfect on the projects

I've never been so anxy/nervous in my life? Shuold I be worried?
your company sounds bad for a lot of reasons, so you should be worried about that.

your behavior sounds defensible to me, but i'm a rational and experienced developer, not whatever loser manager let you get into the situation you're in.

i'd keep that resume polished and your ears open either way. i'd also learn how to stand up for yourself and ask for help when you need it.
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01-15-2013 , 10:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urinal Mint
I would like to code Python / use an interpreter using computers at my school. However, they do not have Python or an IDE installed, and as a student I do not have permission to download and install anything.

Is there a way to code in Python and or use a Python interpreter at school using a flash drive? Using another method?
what are you trying to do with the python you're writing?

online python interpreters exist.

learning how to use a linux-on-a-usb-stick is a terrific life skill and might help you here.
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01-15-2013 , 10:21 PM
i agree that straight syntax recall is a popular and awful way to evaluate developer skill. however, there's definitely a difference between "let's see, i know there's a command for this... something about enumerate... but i always forget if it goes with the select or with the from..." and "...".
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01-15-2013 , 10:23 PM
tyler,

c'mon. there is no way you hire (or even consider any further) a developer who doesn't know "select count(*)" off the top of his head... there is just no way.
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01-15-2013 , 10:30 PM
g_m,

context is everything, but i disagree that flubbing this question is an immediate disqualification.

would you immediately disqualify a candidate who couldn't remember the signature of the main() method in java?
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01-15-2013 , 10:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyler_cracker
g_m,

context is everything, but i disagree that flubbing this question is an immediate disqualification.

would you immediately disqualify a candidate who couldn't remember the signature of the main() method in java?
yes, i probably would, but sure it depends. if the guy was in front of me and i could tell that he'd done it a million times and it was a just a brain fart or like how people can't remember if the red light is on top or bottom of a stoplight, that would be fine. i still think there would be a very high correlation between failing either of those and not having much experience, and this is coming from someone with a pretty bad memory himself who has to consult docs all the time.
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01-15-2013 , 10:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyler_cracker
what are you trying to do with the python you're writing?

online python interpreters exist.

learning how to use a linux-on-a-usb-stick is a terrific life skill and might help you here.
Fairly simple OCW psets.

Linux on USB sounds interesting
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01-15-2013 , 10:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gaming_mouse
tyler,

c'mon. there is no way you hire (or even consider any further) a developer who doesn't know "select count(*)" off the top of his head... there is just no way.
ORMs are a hell of a drug.
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01-15-2013 , 10:54 PM
I really have only been doing web dev like 9 months, and 95% for myself at this point, but my ability to put together SQL off the top of my head is limited. That being said, my memory is completely awful, and I basically never see raw SQL using rails.

No excuses though, I need to sit down and write a bunch of queries so I don't get slammed by not knowing this at an interview. Just playing a small devil's advocate.
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01-15-2013 , 11:06 PM
urinal mint,

you should also consider the even more useful life skill of making friends with someone in charge of the lab so you can do some stuff "off the books".
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01-15-2013 , 11:17 PM
Good point. At a local HS w/o a central lab that may be difficult for me, though.
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