Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD ** ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

05-23-2011 , 05:19 PM
Stackoverflow can be luck sometimes, some days you slave for 100 rep and others like today you answer 2 simple questions and boom! 160 rep.
** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD ** Quote
05-23-2011 , 06:22 PM
I didn't realize that building a website without a CMS is such a learning curve.

Why is figuring out the obvious so difficult for me?
** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD ** Quote
05-23-2011 , 06:23 PM
It's only obvious if you know it, don't get disheartened, every mistake you make will be the last time you make it!

If it's getting too much have a couple of days off as well.
** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD ** Quote
05-23-2011 , 07:52 PM
Welcome to being a web developer. It's not as easy as people not in the business make it out to be.

Off the top of my head to be a well rounded web dev (a professional) you likely at one point in time have to learn at least something about the following:

html, css, javascript, python, ruby, .net, php

This in itself isn't too hairy. Once you learn how to program, adjusting to a new language is much easier. To become a true pro at a specific language will take time though.

On top of these you should be familiar with well supported/maintained libraries and frameworks that live on top of these languages.

node, rails, django, jquery, yui are just a few. There are MANY others and most of the time you'll end up having to learn additional information about what those frameworks use (templating languages, ORMs, etc.).

Then you need to learn about what you're going to use to serve the data you're providing on your web page/app.

mysql, postgres, oracle, couchdb, monogdb, simpledb, cassandra, redis and the list goes on and on. Depending on what frameworks you use, you'll have to know their database API instead of what it's natively running on.

Then you have to know what actually happens when you make an http request to really understand what you're working with and how to put them all together.

Then you need to be able to setup all of the these technologies to work together in some way or another and find a proper hosting platform (as well as handle scaling the systems you implemented to not explode when it gets high traffic). Throw in proper testing, good structure of your code, deployment plans, revision control and everything else that's needed to do this successfully and it gets crazy.

That's not even including information you'll need to know for cross browser/platform consistency, I didn't even begin to tap into mobile phone development.

Of course you need to keep yourself in the loop and constantly keep up with the fast changing changes these technologies make.

This is why I chuckle to myself every time someone puts up a post asking "I want to learn how to protect myself from getting ripped off by learning how to be a web dev", but they say it in such a tone that they expect they'll learn it in a weekend.
** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD ** Quote
05-23-2011 , 07:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoe Lace
This is why I chuckle to myself every time someone puts up a post asking "I want to learn how to protect myself from getting ripped off by learning how to be a web dev", but they say it in such a tone that they expect they'll learn it in a weekend.
"But my nephew... he's a whiz with Dreamweaver."
** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD ** Quote
05-23-2011 , 08:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil S
"But my nephew... he's a whiz with Dreamweaver."
Hi, my uncle's sister's dog walker's 2nd cousin made me this web site for $60 a few years ago. I need another site done and I heard you know how to make web sites. It's simple really, all it has to be is like facebook+youtube+twitter combined. I'll give you $200 and even take you out to dinner tonight to discuss the details. What do you think, can it done by this weekend?

There's some really funny semi-related information about this on theoatmeal.

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/computers
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/design_hell
** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD ** Quote
05-23-2011 , 08:40 PM
My first ticket on SO was almost:

"how do I create a new webpage?"

Seriously. So much detail on how to create a subdomain, parked domain, but not one word on how to create a new page under one of the subdomains, much less the main domain.

Welcome to the obvious.

One day, I will look back and laugh at some weird moron and realize it was me after all.

It is no surprise people only want to pay a CSS/HTML coder $12/hr. I would be very pleased with myself to get something like that.

Last edited by daveT; 05-23-2011 at 08:41 PM. Reason: you forgot to mention dojo. :/
** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD ** Quote
05-23-2011 , 09:16 PM
It's certainly a critical mass of knowledge that is only assembled via frustration and hatred. Welcome to our world, brother.
** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD ** Quote
05-23-2011 , 09:49 PM
That's always been the fun part, you have to basically learn everything at once.
** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD ** Quote
05-23-2011 , 10:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyleb
It's certainly a critical mass of knowledge that is only assembled via frustration and hatred. Welcome to our world, brother.
I have a hard time trying to explain how to learn the basics of this stuff, having done it slowly, on my own, starting around age 8 in Microsoft Advanced BASIC.
** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD ** Quote
05-23-2011 , 10:42 PM
I owned my first laptop when about 3 years ago. It was missing the HD sleeve, so it broke within one month.

I bought another laptop a few months later. I got taken for an idiot and bought it because I was an idiot. That one lasted 3 months, but I learned how to destroy a horrible virus.

Bought another one that was more modern, but that one broke within one month.

After blasting through a few more used computers, finally bought a brand new one (prices dropped to affordable), and this one lasted quite a while so far.

I didn't go on the internet for for first time until I was 20 (I'm 32 now). Basically, my entire exposure to computers revolved around the library.

Oh right: the one that I was using when I was 20 was my roomates'. That one crashed out while I was using it.

I used a computer for the first time in high school. That was when I was 16 or 17. I managed to break 2 of them.

Began fiddling with programming last year.

If you wonder: I was a total technophobe for most of my life, but considering my history with computers, that shouldn't be surprising.

I think I am behind the times. I mean: way behind the times. I mean, it took me a few hours to figure out how to turn my first computer on.
** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD ** Quote
05-23-2011 , 10:55 PM
You're behind the times but not too far. I'm only a few years younger than you.

We were exposed to computers around the same age (I was 14ish) and fortunately got my first computer when I was 16. Picked up programming when I was 17. Messed around with it from then until today on and off, never worked professionally as a "programmer".

I think if you applied yourself hardcore you could catch up in about 2 years. Learning now is much different than it was 10 or 15 years ago.
** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD ** Quote
05-23-2011 , 11:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benholio
Heyo. Would anyone be interested in starting a book review/recommendation thread? There are so many programming books out there, it would be nice to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Things that would be nice to know about some of the popular books:

-Basic review (5/5 stars!)
-Prerequisite knowledge / difficulty level
-What is the goal of the book? (ie: Teach some design patterns, etc)
-Any particular chapters/items that helped you the most

I would start the thread myself if I had a good review. I do have a couple of books queued up to read sometime soon that I'd particularly enjoy feedback on:

Agile Software Development, Principles, Patterns, and Practices (recommended by Gaming Mouse)

Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship

The Pragmatic Programmer: From Journeyman to Master
Effective Java is a MUST read for any Java programmer, new or probably even experienced.
-5/5 stars
-Preregs: basic understanding of Java programming and Object Orientation
-Goal of book: writing quality code that is maintainable, stable, robust, re-usable, scalable, etc.
-Chapters: all of them

The 'gang of four (GoF)' (Gamma, Helm, Johnson, Glissides) Design Patterns book is a classic too but you can't go wrong reading Head First Design Patterns instead which is newer. The GoF book would be useful to any C++ programmer though since their examples are in that. These design pattern books are like the Super System of programming.
-5/5 stars (both books)
-Prereqs: basic knowledge of an object oriented language, C++ for former (GoF), Java for latter (Head First)
-Goal: don't reinvent the wheel
-Chapters: Factory Pattern is a must, other than that skip around to your heart's content

stackoverflow.com is a great Q&A site also, though talking to like-minded poker folks here will be nice. The maker of that site also did joelonsoftware.com which is a nice blog too (the best blog posts have been made into books).

+1 for Pragmatic Programmer.
-5/5 stars
-Prereqs: experience or desire to be a serious programmer working with others or developing a large codebase yourself (or also anyone programming, it's a fun read probably applicable to things outside of programming).
-Goal: sage advice, approaching programming as a fine craftsman, doing things pragmatically (duh)

In general anything from O'Reilly Media (home of the In a Nutshell series) is good for specific topics and I'd avoid the For Dummies books. Also, why buy books except for the classics (all of the ones I mentioned above are)? If you just want to learn a specific technology (which quickly become paperweights) save your money and go to Safari and read online/PDF, unless you like to sit down with a book or only have one monitor. Beginners books are best if they're spiral bound because you can literally keep the book open while you retype the examples (which you should definitely do). And don't just retype them, play around with the code a bit too to make it do different things.

Last edited by bluffold; 05-24-2011 at 12:13 AM.
** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD ** Quote
05-24-2011 , 12:20 AM
in my post above i mentioned Safari, that's an online book site, not the browser. But surfing the net is helpful too, but there are a lot of idiot programmers out there posting. Best learning from reputable websites or surfing forums (googling) error messages or problems you run into.
** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD ** Quote
05-24-2011 , 12:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoe Lace
There's some really funny semi-related information about this on theoatmeal.

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/computers
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/design_hell
lol, this **** is amazing
** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD ** Quote
05-24-2011 , 12:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daveT
My first ticket on SO was almost:

"how do I create a new webpage?"

Seriously. So much detail on how to create a subdomain, parked domain, but not one word on how to create a new page under one of the subdomains, much less the main domain.
Stack Overflow is for programming. What you're talking about is more on the admin side, see serverfault.com (same makers as stackoverflow.com). Also, try calling your hosting company and asking them for help, often the answer to your question is pretty dependent on the hosting package/company you have. If you're hosting yourself, look into server software like Apache Web Server, JBoss/Tomcat, etc. For subdomains, in apache you edit the httpd.conf file to do URL Rewrites (google: mod_rewrite). The main domain? You create a file called index.html generally but you can get a lot fancier, again see the host/domain provider. Not sure what that is? Google: registrars (godaddy.com, register.com, networksolutions.com, etc. etc.).

Note that there's a difference between the registar and the web hosting provider, but the registrar often offers hosting as a package deal. And when you register you might decide to opt for keeping your info private otherwise whois.com or like sites will post your home address, phone, name, email.

If you're just starting out making a website, you can run a local webserver for free on your machine, it's just like any other application, but be careful you're not broadcasting it to the world (firewall rules). You pull it up in the browser by going to http://localhost or http://127.0.0.1 which is an alias to your IP which varies if you use DHCP (almost everyone does). Find your IP on windows by typing
Code:
ipconfig /all
from the command line. Then type http://<your.ip.number>:<port> and it should go to the website. To run a serious webserver contact your ISP and buy a static IP, preferably IPv4 (while supplies last). Or just go with a hosting company, it's less busywork, less risk money-wise, and they have tighter security against hackers.

Last edited by bluffold; 05-24-2011 at 01:02 AM.
** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD ** Quote
05-24-2011 , 01:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoe Lace

We were exposed to computers around the same age (I was 14ish) and fortunately got my first computer when I was 16. Picked up programming when I was 17. Messed around with it from then until today on and off, never worked professionally as a "programmer".
You probably know enough to get a job as a front-end HTML/CSS developer. Not much glory or fun, though.

bluffold: Yeah, I figured it out. Wait a minute: running a server off the machine means I can't turn it off, right?

Have about 5 pages up so far. Not much but at least it's something to sorta brag about.

Basically all the same things I showed here are on it outside of the prototypes.
** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD ** Quote
05-24-2011 , 02:07 AM
I've had a decent amount of freelance work, I just meant I never worked 9-5 in the corporate world as a developer/programmer. In all honesty, it would bore me to tears. Programming as an employee is not one of my life goals.

It would be hard to put a title on my web developer/technical skill set. I know a pretty good amount about a lot of things but I don't think I'm a master of anything. I have enough programming chops to get things done but I'm not the guy you goto when you need to solve a very complex programming task.
** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD ** Quote
05-24-2011 , 03:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil S
I have a hard time trying to explain how to learn the basics of this stuff, having done it slowly, on my own, starting around age 8 in Microsoft Advanced BASIC.
Yeah, me too. And my growth was not linear; I took several years off and picked development skills back up only a few years ago. The time spent between the two was in a related field, fortunately - gambling, mathematics, and statistics, so I didn't lose much of my logic skills, which matters most.

My first language I learned was Tandy BASIC when I was 6, back in 1989. I stuck with command-line BASIC (Apple IIe computers at my grade school) until 13. My parents didn't have enough money for a computer until I was about that old, so prior to age 13, I garbage picked an 8088 and rebuilt it with the help of the local computer shop owner. Then a Laser 286 I bought at a garage sale, and then the crazy awesome computer at age 13 (Pentium 100 Mhz, 32 MB of RAM, 1 GB HD!) where I started VB "development." Soon after, HTML and crude perl paid me a princely sum of $14/hr in high school, which was a damn fortune.

And it was frustrating the whole time. And still is. That part never goes away.
** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD ** Quote
05-24-2011 , 03:48 AM
These days I get more frustrated when servers act up... well that and if I goof up and leave something in that shouldn't be there, or don't :w a file I meant to :w, and spend 30-60 minutes debugging something that isn't a bug.
** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD ** Quote
05-24-2011 , 04:09 AM
Does anyone else get hounded by friends, family and even friends of friends to make them websites for free/very little money? It's the biggest PITA, I don't want to come home from 9 hours at work then spend my evening making more websites for them. How do you guys deflect these proposals? (I'm ok doing it for close friends/family, but it's the friends of friends, or 'friends' you haven't heard from for ages who hear you do websites).
** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD ** Quote
05-24-2011 , 04:21 AM
I'd charge them a small amount, ~£50, ideally have them purchase hosting through my aff link for another $100 commission (even if they buy the super cheap option lol) then throw up a wordpress and spend a few hours helping them how to add / edit pages etc.
** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD ** Quote
05-24-2011 , 05:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gullanian
Does anyone else get hounded by friends, family and even friends of friends to make them websites for free/very little money? It's the biggest PITA, I don't want to come home from 9 hours at work then spend my evening making more websites for them. How do you guys deflect these proposals? (I'm ok doing it for close friends/family, but it's the friends of friends, or 'friends' you haven't heard from for ages who hear you do websites).
I have a few friends who have been talking about opening a website and I have been asking them if I could build theirs.

Look at the bright side: you have motivated friends.

Quote:
Originally Posted by _dave_
I'd charge them a small amount, ~£50, ideally have them purchase hosting through my aff link for another $100 commission (even if they buy the super cheap option lol) then throw up a wordpress and spend a few hours helping them how to add / edit pages etc.
How many times to they sit in awe of how easy web building is and ask how it feels to have an easy job that pays a lot of money?
** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD ** Quote
05-24-2011 , 07:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daveT
I owned my first laptop when about 3 years ago. It was missing the HD sleeve, so it broke within one month.

I bought another laptop a few months later. I got taken for an idiot and bought it because I was an idiot. That one lasted 3 months, but I learned how to destroy a horrible virus.

Bought another one that was more modern, but that one broke within one month.

After blasting through a few more used computers, finally bought a brand new one (prices dropped to affordable), and this one lasted quite a while so far.

I didn't go on the internet for for first time until I was 20 (I'm 32 now). Basically, my entire exposure to computers revolved around the library.

Oh right: the one that I was using when I was 20 was my roomates'. That one crashed out while I was using it.

I used a computer for the first time in high school. That was when I was 16 or 17. I managed to break 2 of them.
Man you have bad luck with computers!

Juk
** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD ** Quote
05-24-2011 , 08:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gullanian
Does anyone else get hounded by friends, family and even friends of friends to make them websites for free/very little money? It's the biggest PITA, I don't want to come home from 9 hours at work then spend my evening making more websites for them. How do you guys deflect these proposals? (I'm ok doing it for close friends/family, but it's the friends of friends, or 'friends' you haven't heard from for ages who hear you do websites).
I tell them I'll do it for the same rate I charge strangers - $40/hr. That quickly separates out the people who actually want a website and the ones who are "lol, cool, a website would be cool wait, what you want me to pay for it?"
** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD ** Quote

      
m