What the heck are you talking about? Please explain. Maybe a reading comprehension fail happened here?

This is where you and I are different. I have to look at myself in the mirror when I wake up, and there are some things that are off-limits.

It probably doesn't help that I've had a long line of horrible employers, many who I can't even say had the standard good quality of paying on time. Employers who are so driven by monetary decisions that they would go forth and lowball and accept obviously lowball offers is a piece of ****.

This isn't how things happen... You go to any two popular grocery stores and the prices are the same. Heinz and Hunts ketchup cost about the same. The free market isn't a race to the bottom.

I would say no... At my last contract, I was working around a ton of PhD's, all super smart and productive to a level I never witnessed. No one was getting paid Facebook prices.

Even so, there are places people would not work due to disinterest or ethical reasons. Some people believe working for government or military is unethical. I believe wasting your talents at Facebook is unethical. Surely, Facebook pays more than Watsi, but I doubt Watsi struggles to find talent.

Once your intern pushes a single line of code to production, you are in very gray area! This is not a matter of degree.

http://internjustice.com/2013/05/24/...est-explained/

The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the intern; and on occasion its operations may actually be impeded;

We or you? Because that's exactly what I was talking about. Zero sales should be more incentive to pay for talent and retain them, IMO. The last thing you want when you are trying to grow a business is an unstable workforce.

Where did I once say I was offended? In my OP, I said that I wasn't angry, just mystified. Is there some magic bean about programming that makes doing free work not outright insane? Is there a magic bean about startups that makes offering unpaid work a good thing?

This is purely political, but you are talking to a nascent Texan and someone who didn't buy into Obamacare.

I don't know what you mean by "artificially high" since we aren't talking about unions here. You can argue that pay in SF is too high in many ways, but then again, living in SF is impossible unless you make those wages.

On the opposite pole, you have LA being super expensive, but the pay there is usually too low to survive. Then we have Austin, which is, as far as I can tell, more expensive than LA, but the pay is pretty well aligned so that you can have some balance. Pay in a total vacuum is hard to judge.

I have to answer to myself. I have to go to bed at night after looking at Mr B every day. I would have a very difficult time managing that person as well. I know, because I've been in the position of managing people who have been way underpaid. There is no way I'd buy into this.

The key word here is "like." If you "liked" the guy that was more expensive, you would have hired him. Surely, you'd pay a little more if he put a guarantee that your fence is plum and square.

You are talking to someone who chose to specialize in databases, which is kind of the gutter of pay.

I do want to clarity one thing.

I'm all for paying what you can afford. That doesn't mean I have to agree to the terms, but considering there are options, then that person should use those options. In any case, I don't think it is good to ask people to do free work under any condition at all. I could do a startup tomorrow if I felt comfortable asking for free work, but that's not my cup of tea. Beliefs aside, I don't see what business upside there is to doing this.

I think the larger point you are trying to make is rational and worth arguing, but it is wrong.

That said, saying "you could do a startup tomorrow if you felt comfortable asking for free work" is so ridiculous. Do you have any idea of how hard startups are?

1) 100% correct.
2) Yes. But I've never seen an instance where you aren't exercising common.
3) That is a very messy way of saying it, but whatever.

I'm glad you have had the chance to play options with adults. You sounds like you don't really get it. And are still grasping at it. That is totally cool. You are almost totally correct and confused about a few issues. We can quibble about the individual executions of options. The overhang of options. Or really douchey options that present a problem to exits.

To sum up, I think you're like 90% of the way there and helping a ton of people, but its like buying a home without advisement/knowledge. If you dropped 80k without any clue. People would think you're insane. Signing an option contract without legal advisement is trivial. It shouldn't be.

Sorry /rant.

I was may a coy jopke about applying his value proposition widely. If you shouldn't work for something you think is unethical. You shouldn't buy goods as well.

I failed. Sorry.

Where would we be if *90%* of startups didn't fail? Many talented people put a ton of work in startups and build fundamentally sound businesses. (Or take sick moon shots.)

I've read a few of your posts and I wouldn't be shocked if you'd done this dance a few a times. Needless to say anyone who feels the spoils are misattributed should try and give it a go.

So, i've hooking myself up with an X-mas gift.
Taking some money and putting it aside for a tattoo of the beginning coords of the violin for Symphony No. 5 in C Minor - Beethoven.

I think it will be epic but also debating C++ tattoo (sideways) on right side of neck, beethoven beginning part (left inside of arm) and I think it will look pretty epic.

Now the C++ tat would be just "C++" but is symbolic cause it was first language that I really figured 'it' out.

So, I'm wondering what first impressions will be from other programmers, seeing a person with C++ on neck and wondering how much it would hurt employment when needed.

Unless you were highly skilled (5x+) I'd decline. Too close to convict level. (IE visible face/neck tats) Do whatever you want, but a private tribute is generally superior to a negatively judged public tribute.

lol

My arms are pretty skinny.
I'm thinking thin lines with black and purple notes mixed in.

Will obviously wear long sleeve shirts to interview but maybe i'll wait on C++ tattoo.

Would need some epic font.
I don't think it would be lame looking like some basic code but not one to ever judge without knowing the full story and then it is even hard.

what the heck

You should tattoo "hello world" in brainfu*k

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain****#Hello_World.21

That would look really wild but only reason i'm thinking of the C++ tat is cause its first real programming language that I fell in love with.
Seriously don't think it would look that bad, probably would make sure size is perfect and font is semi wild. Once again it would just be "C++" without the quotes, so no syntax code or whatever.

This

Mihkel, cool story.

I'm sure feeling insecure about criticism from a guy who clearly has a simplified view of how equity works and has added no substance.

Maybe just try to read and learn from others?

That must be some kind of age test or something, because that tattoo seems incredibly stupid.

No way... its like having your own personal canvas, that you always have with you.
Some of the most interesting people i've encountered have tattoos and some of them were not the most artistic looking but had a pretty cool story.

The "C++" tattoo would be positioned in such a way that there would be space for the future "partner".
Like C is side ways and ++ are going upwards, the position to the name for C++, would be upper right and smaller font.

Now the notes for the Beethoven would also be small but artsy and look pretty cool imo.

problem with C++ tat is same problem with highschool gf name tat: eventually you'll grow up and realize it's nothing special, you were just young, and your infatuation with it will embarrass you.

I honestly don't think that, when there is real meaning behind it.
Never really saw the beauty in no tattoo vs tattoo but always enjoyed the story behind them.

Its like having a diary tbh, sort of worthless if you think that you outgrow what was once special to you.

oh i was just ripping on C++, not making a philosophical statement. i like nerd tats. that said, a neck tattoo is nothing like a diary, other than the "record of a yourself at a certain time" part.

Always planned to get future partner tattooed on neck, having C++ like at the top right corner seems like no biggie.
Our bodies are pretty close to a diary/life analogy, in my mind but no reason to argue it.

Now i'm guessing that non programmers might assume that I was a C+ average student or something with an extra + added on.
Something that may piss me off, if asked constantly about it lol.

True but a high discount rare would be called for which means not worth much probably.

Not true if you are stating that other aspects of the business that don't affect future earnings are part of the valuation. If you are referring to intellectual property then that is certainly relevant to future earnings. I guess you could argue that a company could be asset rich with hard assets like real estate, precious metals, etc. but that seems irrelevant regarding a startup, a young company offering equity as the source of pay.

I realize that startups often are looking to be bought out but ultimately the reason for buying the company has everything to do with future earnings that their IP is capable of providing. Pretty much DCF is how companies are valued in the stock market. Estimating future earnings is a hard thing to do especially regarding startups. It is pretty clear though that companies are bought out for what their IP can bring to the table in terms of revenue and earnings.

Dilution of what a share is worth is a factor but to me that is part of hammering out a deal for equity.

Notice that lowering a discount rate implies having technical insight regarding the companies intellectual property, being knowledgable about company finances, being knowledgeable about management competence, how the technology being developed fits in with technology that exists currently, knowledge of a companies capital structure, barriers to entry, and whatever else affects the companies prospects. The less one knows the higher the risk factor, the higher the risk factor, the higher the discount rate, the higher the discount rate, the less the equity is worth. Evaluating risk is a huge factor in my mind and there can be no doubt that in placing a value on equity it is essential to the process.

maybe just start all of your posts with this and save us some time

Also, you guys couldn't talk iosys out of dropping out of 1-semester-left college, what chance do you think you'll have of talking him out of prison-style tattoo?

The problem with getting a tattoo of something that has meaning to you right now is that tattoos are permanent while the things that have meaning to you will change over time.

@noodle Oh that is pretty funny but I do reason with other peoples' thoughts.
I doubt it will look like a prison tattoo cause I'm thinking hot pink or orange as the colour.

Yah, not going to get a face tattoo, don't understand the reason for those eyebrow tattoos but some women like the style, I guess.