Hey guys, I've been a web developer/poker player on off last 10ish years since graduating from college. I've had two jobs of 2.5~ years each, and a 5 year gap since leaving my last job (Jan 2018). I'm 100% in job search mode now since mid Dec, and just need some/tips/honest opinion from others that can probably relate on this forum.

I was primarily an online grinder over the last 5 years, but did some cash grinding too across US/CAN.

I've job searched I'll say 5 times(post graduation(Summer 2011), after first job(Summer/Winter 2014/15), during second job(2017), 1 year after leaving past job(late 18/early 19), and since Sept 2022) over the last 10 years, my call-back/screener rate was usually like 15-20% I'd say, but over the last 3-4 months it is around 5-10%.

I'm not applying for any super high end jobs as I know I'm not prepared for something like that, but mostly mid/sr level web dev jobs with a mix of (Angular/React/Node/Java) which are the primary languages I used at my last job. Applying for a mix of hybrid and in-person for Toronto, Canada.

Over the last 5~ years, I've worked on some CRUD projects that involve Angular/React/Node/Mongo/Material/RXJS/Redux. Also done some hackerrank/leetcode problems to prep for eventual interviews. So its not like I havent done any programming during my long break/gap.

So I know the market is probably a tough time given all the tech layoffs over the last few months, but my response rate is by far the lowest in my experience, perhaps partially due to my career gap, and partially due to the market.

I usually mention poker on my cover letter, but no reference of it on my resume, my fear is perhaps some people see the 5 year gap without explanation the instantly toss my resume aside, perhaps leading to my low callback/screener rate lately.

So for others that have gone through the poker/developer career any tips?

My website/portfolio/resume is http://chrisstephensj.com

Thanks

I haven’t been in that situation (yet) but could be at some point in the future.

The other day I read an article that had a pretty good idea… try listing years of tenure in your resume instead of dates.

Listing that you were self employed during the gap period could also work as long as you have a back story.

IMO wouldn’t mention poker at all unless you’re applying to a poker related company or someone in the poker community reaches out to you with some kind of offer. Most people who aren’t themselves profitable at poker will not understand and just assume you’re some kind of degen gambler.

Could also just say you took some time off to help family out and did gig work to make ends meet (Uber, etc) … or even like your website says you could just say you traveled, but I’d leave out poker.

dude, i'm in the same boat

i haven't worked a 9-5 job since 2015 and previously worked in tech (literally just had to open linkedin to get a refresher because i forgot how long)

I luckboxed into joining a startup which went places and played a large role that went meteoric and IPO'd ie if you read a news article on it, my name will pop up etc

I then took some time off to travel for a year or so and then joined another startup which looked promising and went from A-C round during my time there and 12 people to over 300

I hated the 70 hour work week and left to go back to traveling and figured could make money the old fashioned way of gambling like before i started working for the man

at the time I left, I was getting regularly approached by head hunters and recruiters because they didn't realize I was just a luckbox and thought perhaps I may have been the special sauce, these were VP & department director level jobs - i'm too busy backpacking the third world and figure these will be around no problem when I'm ready

2022 rolls around, I'm now older, done with constant travel, realizing that it'd be nice to have a company provided healtcare plan and frankly, just want to expand my network again, which had shrunk to nothing during that time hitchhiking and backpacking

so I start firing out resumes to senior level product manager positions - nothing, no response

no biggie, just send out some more, nothing

ok, ok, it's been a while, perhaps I should focus on mid level stuff and then leverage that into a more senior thing in 6 months - fire off a few dozen resumes - nothing, no response, nobody asking me for an intereview

It's been a few months since I last went in "let's see what's out there" mode but I've 100% sent out about 500 job applications in the past year. I've not gotten a single request to do an interview.

I'm a very strong candidate, I have a really strong work history. But obviously that huge gap terrifies them. Even more so that I explain it away "I was traveling and gambling bro"

fortunately, I still can earn a comfortable living doing what I do, so it's not like I'm in the bread line, but it is frustrating

furthermore the industry got oversaturated with everyone wanting to do a bootcamp and make 6 figures, factor in an economic downswing where all the big firms (I think 200k tech workers were laid off this year and those jobs haven't come back)

So the rockstar engineers who previously juggled 180k vs 190k packages from netflix and facebook have now been laid off, their old jobs are gone so they dip down to the generic firms - so even the bs jobs have insane competition - on job search websites I've been to that show you the number of applicants, it's always several hundred - all for a single position

so while I personally kickass and have a tremendously work history, so do dozens of others applying for that same job and none of them carry the red flags I do

frankly, I'm shocked, like I don't even warrant enough interest for someone in HR to interview me just out of curiousity, "woah look at this rickroll fella, he was in charge of an app with millions of users and then went backpacking for 7 years" nope, nothing, nothing at all

so yeah, i can't help you, just help reassure you that you're not alone, it really sucks out there

i'm planning on firing off another dozen resumes and cover letters next week and resuming the hunt



But I can help by mentioning how I've literally tried various strategies regarding my gap

I've tried:

1 not addressing it

2 just mentioning it briefly so they know I wasn't a junkie or in a coma

3 not mentioning the gambool but focusing on the non-gambling things I've done

4. fully embracing it - this is me I build great apps and also beat vegas

5. saying I had family issues to deal with that is no longer the case


all have same result of 0 replies - after seeing all fail, I'm just going to stick with the 4th one and embrace it


however, I still get in plenty of consulting work that I've been doing for years, which is just super weird


wish us luck

^ If you've been doing consulting work for years, why can't you just put that on your resume for recent work history?

let me clarify

it is, for first several months the resume and cover letter was the tech job to consulting and now want to go back to regular tech job

no dice, industry is just absolutely wacked



issue isn't the gambool so much as the gap, they have so many applicants that why would they want someone who hasn't done a standing scrum for 7 years

i added the gambool knowing the downsides in hopes it'd make me stand out, figuring that with zero responses, i no longer needed to worry about turning off a certain percentage of the population to hiring a gamboler but rather do something that helps me better stand out

only recently put the gamble stuff on my resume and linkedin - for years they went unacknowledged and unmentioned and just let everyone assume consulting was 100%

these days it's less that 5% of income and not even worth the time to pursue - covid absolutely wacked it from steady work to "sorry everything is shutdown with lockdowns" to never resuming because now the entire industry is in crisis

also, my consulting was with foreign companies, it's a great network to leverage if I want to move to Bangalore, Bangkok, or Shanghai but not in USA#1

I also forgot to add try a temp agency or recruiter … you are much more likely to get an interview that way. Temp agency has had a 100% success rate for me to get a non IT job… and had multiple interviews for IT jobs when using a recruiter. They already have a direct line of communication going, where as submitting your resume to some companies online career portal is more like sending it into a black hole.

Thanks for the responses..

I have been gettin interviews though RR, hopefully you run better and get something, my socials are above if u wanna just chat sometime.

I have a 2nd one this upcoming Monday
In the first interview they mentioned "So I see you have a gap.."
I responded "Yeah I left on amicable terms and was self-employed for a while.."
He responded "Do you have a list of the projects you worked on while you were self employed?"
I just responded "Well I have a list of some of the projects I worked on my resume, but tbh I was just a poker player as a source of income which lead to the extended break"..
He didnt even really blink then moved onto the next question, and finalized a 2nd interview a few min later..

First thing I'd do if I were you guys is get on linkedin and find every ex-coworker you had a good relationship with and ask them if they know of any openings at the company they are at.

Ya, I'm still in regular touch text/twitter with 4-5 people from my last job, and mentioned I'm looking for jobs again.

Gonna tweak my resume soon and add some info to my resume about poker

What do you guys think is better.

A) Add an objective "Developer looking to return to the workforce after an extended absence in which I played poker"
B) Add poker to experience trying to explain gap, with a few points.

This is pretty funny. I stumbled upon this thread randomly after not having been on here in forever, and I see your name. It's funny because I vividly remember you, and basically only you, posting in my thread (titled something like "Quit my job for poker, now semi-unemployable"), which I created right after having been let go for "being found out" as a poker player essentially. I remember your initial post in the thread making me feel quite hopeless about the future, since you very strongly believed that nobody in their right mind would hire an ex gambler who intentionally omits information/isn't 100% ultra honest about their background.

If my story is of any interest I can say that I managed to get a job shortly after I made the thread in question, admittedly by omitting information once more, and going with the "been traveling/trying to figure stuff out/looking for the right type of opportunity" angle combined with "it's been surprisingly hard to find a job over the last x months!" (which people can sympathize with if they like you). This was an advanced position, but it was a fixed-term contract, so it was likely slightly easier to get than your typical permanent position for academics. However, after applying myself and performing in that position for ~1 year, I started applying for new jobs/permanent employment, and it was infinitely easier that time around. Once you don't come from a long period of nothingness it's obviously a whole different ball game. I moved on to that position and while I was perfectly happy, I recently decided to apply for a position in a completely different industry where I thought maybe poker would work in my favor, so I included poker in my cover letter and ended up being offered the position.

Not sure if it's of any value to you OP -- but instead of having a massive gap on my resume I put something along the lines of "career break/pursuing passions" and just referred to my cover letter where I described it more in depth. I would also maybe try to focus on less threatening parts of poker, like saying you coached poker players, focused a ton on game theory, and invested in poker players so successfully that all those things combined allowed you to make a decent living. Make actually playing poker a fairly minor part of the whole package and it'll likely come across as less of a red flag.

GL

I've been doing a cover letter for 3-4 months and briefly mentioning poker, but I have no clue how often people read it if at all.

I'm getting responses, but definitely as not as high as I thought I would, given I have 5~ years exp (2x2.5)..

I don't think a right answer even exists whether for add/dont add poker to resume, add it on cover letter, etc.

Just keeping my heads up hoping for the best..

Can’t imagine it would ever be right to put poker on a resume or cover letter. There used to be a firm that used to hire poker players but that’s a one in a million thing.

Even in the remote chance they value that skill set they still have to worry that you won’t like the job and just go back to poker at a moment’s notice. And if they don’t understand poker they are going to think you are a delusional degen clown trying to pass it off as a business.

Get out the Pinocchio nose and fill the resume gap with something that sounds good and that they can’t check up on. And not stuff like you went backpacking to find yourself or help Africans clean their drinking water.

They aren’t looking for a hero. They want someone who can do the work and has a higher probability of still being in that seat for 5-10 years

Yeah this is horrible advice. Don't outright lie on your resume when the gap is as big as it is lol.

he's not known good advice though and lol at tech companies expecting people to stay for 10 years... and sorry if i came off as debbie downer in your thread, but i probably did it again in this one too

Lol ok, keep on insisting to put poker on resume/cover and not getting a job

That’s usually how threads like this end up, guy gets good advice to leave it out but they refuse. FYI the jury is not out on this.

Get creative and bridge it other means. Vandalay Industries?

I used to have say in who my ex company hired, would never hire an ex poker player. Just too easy of a job to go back if the seas get a little rough.

This is just reality

I'm not gonna lie under any circumstance about what I did the last 5 years, only debate as I mentioned above is to add poker to my resume which I haven't yet, but might do very soon, right now I only mention it briefly on cover letters.

Where I live in Toronto, Ontario Canada alot of sportsbook/poker companies exist and my hope is eventually I'll catch onto something with one of them.

It’s up to you, but it’s hurting you

To possibly make it more clear, let’s assume that instead you were a legal prostitute in Nevada. Would you put that on your resume? To many prospective employers it’s either the same or maybe even worse

I wouldn’t also assume that Sportsbook/poker companies would value a professional poker player background. There are just like any other company, they don’t want to hire a guy that could basically just leave at a moment’s notice. Which a former pro player is more apt to.

Just to add you have the COVID years to possibly help flesh out the lies that you should be working on

Semi bump update..

Still getting interviews/responses at a reasonable rate..

****ed up 2 interviews for fullstack devs (both asked alot about accessibility/aria stuff, and I blanked. We didnt really care about that at my last job)

But gonna go 100% all-in mentioning poker now with my resume and see how it goes..

Huge variance in mentioning poker I guess, for me most of the times it has been well received and liked. Currently working as a dev in the crypto industry and have done for a while, so maybe more favourable there

Another bump...
Did 200~ Resumes with poker in experience and results were dreadful..
Gonna remove poker from experience and trying brief objective mentioning poker.

But this is super depressing now..
I still don't know if my problem is poker, the market, my gap or whatever.
Never ever ever ever ever ever had so many problems trying to get a dev job, heck even an interview. (8 months / 600 applications)

*I've only read like 5 posts in this thread*My advice is register for like some **** tier community college on one of those sites like instant cert. There are community colleges where everything is very very cheap. Go around begging churches and old people to work on their computers. Then list your expected graduation date as 2024 and list the church as an internship. Write that you were an equity analyst for the last 5 years and you used sql software to help you analyze other high variance software. Say you've been studying hard as a student and can't wait to show off your skills.

edit: I looked at your resume and i see you already have some education listed. hmmm

After reading your resume, I'm surprised you haven't gotten interviews at least. I'm also surprised you didn't get a job. You have over 15 years experience in web development. You know 5 different programming languages and a wide variety of industry standard tools. Your skill set and experience are vast so there is some sort of mismatch going on here.
Some general observations:
1. "Experienced web developer looking to return to a full time position following a 2018 decision to work full time as a professional poker player."
I understand you want to be honest and you should be, but this statement reads like an admission of guilt for a bad decision you have made. There's no reason to imply you've made a bad decision. Why not just list your objective as something like "young web developer with over a decade of experience in both front end and backend web development seeks the opportunity to work and share his skills with an exciting team. "
2. zzpace doesn't seem visually as impressive as some of your other projects. Maybe just say you were a freelance web developer from 2018-2023 and list it alongside some other projects you have done or worked on. The more projects you can list the better. Also this is the place to briefly mention a gaming/ poker related project. That way your resume is honest and crisp with no gap.
3. Do you have any non computer related skills? You should list a few things like excellent communication skills, ability to manage time to meet deadlines in evolving workplaces , a few things like that. Have you done any volunteer work?

You should be able to get a job. Those are just some observations

I feel like we're starting to see the big shift. AI is going to be writing programs and pen testing applications, all these high paid human workers are going to be replaced by AI. I honestly think that in the not so distant future, musicians are going to become a lot more valued by society, and todays programmers and pen testers are going to be seen as irrelevant.

AI can write code, AI can pen test a web app, but AI and robotics CANNOT make a violin or a guitar sing sweetly. The human ability to play musical instruments, especially stringed instruments, and play them incredibly well, cannot possibly be duplicated or surpassed by AI and machines imo. At least not in my life time, not this century. Maybe even not ever.

Hey thanks for your two cents..

I've had gotten responses/at least one interview from maybe 25/800 applications this year, mostly during the late Winter/Early Spring. Just this summer its been <1%. Just its never been this low in comparison to past time I've looked for jobs over the last 10~ years.

I've been to 5~ local networking events (Toronto, Canada) most of the local university grads or bootcamp grads were getting lower response rate then me.

1. Ive changed/tweaked this objective a few times, but I just want something short to briefly explain my break/gap (I'm not gonna lie about the gap/break).
The last few months I've been trying two different resumes, one with poker in experience (gambling, poker, startups) and a non-poker version.
2. I'll also agree it doesn't look as visually appealing, as I just have made the site all from scratch myself (I am not a designer), I am mostly concerned with the actual front or back-end code which 95% of it I did myself, maybe 5% I took from a few tutorials.
Perhaps I should put more effort into the front-end you think?
The other websites I made, were just PSD(Photoshop Files) I found on the internet then I just made those websites from the PSD files that other people made.
3. I've been trying to keep a one page-resume at all costs, and I just don't have enough room stuff like this currently.

In the last week I applied for local jobs from GG poker, and pinnacle sports book, hopefully either of those I can get an interview..

PS. You sort of answered this, but what do you think is the best way to answer my gap? List poker in experience, brief objective, make up BS LLC and be "self-employed", etc?

Thanks, I appreciate it..