There is a difference between caring for getting laid or getting high on chemicals and actually putting some effort that can make a difference and even save the world sometime if the going gets tough. Who is gonna make the difference then the hedonistic idiot that never could climb away from an orgasm or those that cared for the deeper nature of things?

Let me put it this way too. If selfish pleasure is the one we are all after i can assure you that pursuing science will lead eventually to maximal pleasure at all kinds of unbelievably intricate levels.

So there is profound difference in the quality of pleasure one is after and even the very order of magnitude of ultimate pleasure experienced.

The input you're seeking to produce your desired output of pleasure is more sophisticated and refined.

Why?

Does it feel better when it's more sophisticated?

Because it feels more useful and secures existence better than simpler approaches. It is the intelligent choice.

Without science a life ending asteroid of pandemic would go about having their way. And then all pleasure ends.

Intelligence is about opening more doors. Science does that. Knowledge opens more doors and enables a wiser potentially more secure future.


Mankind will proceed to wipe out 95% of life species because of morons that dont get science and then recover all of them in other systems so that life will be harder to be wiped out.

Once again science enables the next step.

PS: Bostrom is dead wrong and so are Hawking and Musk re super-intelligence (that doesn't mean we should proceed without proper care. Science can help us handle the transition intelligently) . They are all afraid of the next step when the next step will be wiser and stronger than any one before that. Progress is unavoidable. We are not the endgame.

Why do you think existence needs to be secured? Why only useful approaches to spending time?

In my view, experience never ends. It's eternal. Eternally recurring and eternally varying.

Without an observer there is no experience. Only interactions without consciousnesses. My consciousness ends with my death. Guess what happens if all others die also. If the planet were to be wiped out by a rare collision with a rogue dwarf planet from another solar system all experience in this system ends.

I don't think you're following...

How can there be observed without observer? How can there be interactions without observer?

When this arrangement recurs you'll probably be doing the same thing with your time.

The observer is the universe itself of course constantly but its not a conscious observer at the proton or electron level. Protons cant join forces and go to the moon and bring back other protons also.

It wont recur stop the bs without proof concept that its all repeating eternally. There is no evidence for this. How can you use so confidently something that has no evidence? Its what religions do all the time.

This world definitely has a very hot beginning by the way. It wasn't like this before for the concept of before is meaningless. Sure other worlds could have existed before ina greater super system (with time redefined there) but there is no evidence for that. Even if they did there is no evidence there is an infinity of them.

Eternal inflation has no conclusive evidence yet.

There need not be evidence. You know, somewhere deep down, that experience never ends.

We all do. We all live as if we're going to live forever.

Without an outcome to fear, there is no high-stakes game to play. The outcome you fear - end of experience for you or life in general - is not an outcome that can ever come to fruition.

Convinced of something to fear: it adds to the game. Yet, there isn't. You got here unknowingly, you will leave here unknowingly and get to somewhere else unknowingly. It can only work this way.

Enjoy the game, but fear not.

Are you serious? Of course it will end. It ends for everyone you ever knew. No need for evidence? You are speaking as if religious now without any desire for evidence.

The evidence i have on the other hand is that when you sleep at night you stop observing and time ends for you for a while. Well in the real death its permanent.

The only thing that survives are the consequences of having lived. What starts again is something else that may use some of your atoms but not the same structure because its astronomically^astronomically unlikely.

Who says i am afraid by the way. Its the universe's loss that i will die one day lol! But it will do just fine anyway only a little bit worse than the alternative of having one more higher complexity carbon unit lol. I regret that it will happen of course. Unlike most other people that i have asked the question i would never get bored of living if possible to extend the ticket.

What ends for everyone i ever knew? Experience?

You can only know experience. You cannot know non-experience. As far as I know, I'm generally experiencing while sleeping, and even when I'm supposedly not, that time doesn't register. Since it doesn't register, the experiencing doesn't stop. Ever.

Extending this beyond "death", experience can never end in an infinity. The time between "death" and experiencing again is less than a second; albeit an astronomical number of years has passed in the mean time.

Yes conscious experience ends. The eyes, the ears the other sensory systems do not record anything anymore and the brain is not in position to process anything. It all decays like the food we consume does if not used fast enough.

You can have an infinity of time after the death and someone like you or me wont ever happen again anywhere near that way. It cant happen the same way in random walk in 3d, you do not get back to origin always, only in this case its random walk in 10^whatever dimensions of degrees of freedom ie far more impossible.

Why are you sounding more and more like moving away from science in your thinking? We have nothing dependable without science. Didn't you use to be someone that liked theories to be falsifiable?

lol, the privileged narcissist, living off the work of others, thinks he's' special. Unreal.

VeeDDzz's philosophy in a nutshell:

1. Everything exists in every possible way an infinite number of times
2. Therefore there is cosmic justice because everything that could happen, happens
3. There is nothing to fear because you consciousness will come again somewhere

This is pure religion, for there is zero evidence. The first is almost certain not to be true (even infinite time * an infinite universe (which is equivalent to multiverse), doesn't mean you'll come again). The second fails freshman philosophy. The third fails on a number of levels, not least of which, an atomic clone of you is not you and is not connected to you.

Why not?

What makes it impossible?

P.s. ToothSayer you're not actually saying anything. You haven't said anything meaningful for a while now in this thread. Please make a detour to the Politics section. Please.

ITT we're discovering that you believe in a weird bastardization of some layman's view of the multiverse, as a religion, for which there is zero evidence.

This belief allows you to continue your hedonism, as it is neatly avoids issues of justice and responsibility, if you don't think about it beyond the level of freshman philosophy.

You believe it is also a way to avoid the problem of dying and have eternal life.

This is comical dude, and pure religion, bordering on madness. It's not me who should go to the politics forum, but you who should go to the religion forum. Believe it if you want but realize it's pure religion and that many of its tenets fail basic philosophy.

Your view has been noted. Thank you. Is that all?

I think this is how most observers would describe your posts here. TS and masque are the only reasons this thread is worth reading.

Sure. I apologize for picking on you.

There's no malice in it. I only bother because I think (hope?) you have a brain, and would hate to see someone with a brain following Watts down the rabbit hole of a crazy, witless religion, that ultimately makes you enjoy and experience life less by abstracting away/dissociating from suffering and difficulty and unfairness.

Aphoristically, the time between one's death and the next incarnation is approximately 800 years, at the present time.

Due to our less than developed egocentricity we live in a very hedonistic time; does the fact that one can transfer monies across oceans in a split second do anything but feed the self centeredness of the actor ?

Technology feeds the self but does it offer noble development of the human soul ; not so much. Waxing enthusiastic about the technological process is a good thing but the dark side should be also be appreciated. There is no free lunch.

The Eastern look is really not appropriate for the western man for in actuality it is a decadent mime of a stellar comprehension of the cosmos but the stellar look without an appreciation of the "work of the earth".

Going back to ancient India, that India before written records, about 10000 years ago (post Atlantean) we have a ;people whose heads were literally immersed in the supersensible who could live within the "spirit" which very few could speak to or care to speak to in our age.

Because of their high clairvoyant appreciation of this realm they denied the earth calling it "maya" for good reason for they were living within the real "realities". These early Indians lived in thatched homes of very little sophistication within the green earth for they had no need for the earth. Some were more aware of these realms and others less, as is usual with the being of man. this cultural epoch lasted approximately 2100 years.

Time moves on and the next cultural epoch of 2100 years we have the Persians, of Zoraster or Zarathustra. Again, still no written records and these peoples worked the earth and here is the beginnings of a consideration of the "Gods of Light and Darkness".

In the third cultural epoch we have the Egyptian, Chaldean ethos and in this the world began to be "measured" . It was only during this period that writing began whereas previously it was speech or pure attention to the betters that brought forth the old perceptions of , for instance, the ancient Indians.

The Indian and :Persian cultures continued on, in different geographies, of course and the Vedas /Vendata philosophy were written down , or at least their beginnings. What was written was only a dim echo of the magnificence of these ancient perceptions , the realities lost on the human being who was developing a love for the earthly, appropriately .

Following Egypt and Chaldea we have the Greco-Roman cultural epoch which began in 600 B.C. and lasted until our 15th century. During this time the intellect was furbished and logic began (Aristotle).

One note, in ancient times if an eagle was observed the salient and total knowledge of the eagle was directly and immediately appreciated ; there was a direct perception of and comprehension of the object of our sensory and higher capabilities. With the intellect this changed and now we "think" whereas ancient man had no need for the intellect as we know it, but was developing the same for you were him.

In order to "think" one has to separate one's self from the object; in other words one has to be antipathetic to the object. If one were to become sympathetic to the object one , will laden, becomes immersed within the object and the antipathy is lessened as is thinking.

The 5th cultural epoch, in which we are submersed, began in the 15th century and we see the individuality of the human being coming to the fore, like it or leave it we are immersed within our individual selves and work within a morally bound appreciation of cosmic origins within the earth.

We are responsible for what we become as this work will come back to us in the after life and onto our next incarnation. Its not all karma but a supreme refurbishment of the individual human soul, that to which we become renewed through a living grace.

The East, in its decadent form or the day, is not for western man for he is too "thick" or "earth bound" to appreciate an matter which will again reappear in the far away future in another form but that's another story.

Please note that the above is a history, something to which the East does not speak to for there is only some type of eternal recurrence which is really our modern interpretation of this activity.

The rising and falling of nations and peoples and tribes has substance which cannot be denied by a stroke of the flitting timeless pen; there is time and it exists as "being" and is undeniable.

I think it's good to work on the theme: YES, I WILL DIE, and try to get kind of comfortable with that. Then you are less prone to grasp at the straws of improbable religious solutions.

That's strange appeal to most observers. I'd rather go with more flexible and open minds available while observing.

When there are a finite number of landing spots in all directions, (except time) the above statement is totally untrue.

It would be funny if the great AI emerges and finds philosophy so fascinating it refuses to work on anything else.


PairTheBoard

But we do not have this here because we do not have for example a permanently closed gas particles container that is patiently awaiting its Poincare recurrence time. Not only this time is even then ridiculously big but in this case the box is destroyed by the rest of the universe that keeps expanding in all possible directions of complexity and space-time.

If you have to wait say 10^100 years to get to a nearby spot (its far worse than that though) you no longer have a solar system or galaxies the way they are today in such long time. Its like the Pi returning to all its previous digits kind of a problem. The number of possible landings spots increases with time.

Its not a fixed phase space system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_space
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poinca...rrence_theorem