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 Science, Math, and Philosophy Discussions regarding science, math, and/or philosophy.

Yesterday, 06:12 PM   #16751
PairTheBoard
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 9,648
Re: SMP Life is Being Drunk -Random Content thread

Quote:
 Originally Posted by PairTheBoard The question was whether the advantage is so large for placing the two far slower swimmers (females) in the shorter (time-wise) races as to make it silly to even consider individual data or gender psychology. Suppose the females were half as fast as males for all events - give or take a little for individual data. Suppose males swim the first 3 legs in about 100 seconds each and the last leg in about 50 seconds - give or take a little for individual data. Would you even consider placing a male in the last leg based on individual data? Of course not. PairTheBoard
Quote:
 Originally Posted by BrianTheMick2 I'm apparently missing something. What benefit is gained over the far simpler and far more accurate method of using the individual data?
Evidently your method can be improved upon in the mixed 4x400 freestyle relay. According to your method it shouldn't matter which order you swim the males/females as long as they are the fastest two male and female swimmers. But statistics show that swimming the females last is better due to psychological factors.

In the extreme example I gave above I'm not saying there's a better solution than the one you'd get using your method. I am saying it's worth knowing that in this extreme case the solution is automatic and obvious, requiring no such calculations. And if someone swam a male in the last leg claiming to have used your method it would be clear they had made some kind of mistake.

Similarly, I'm saying it would be worth knowing if the actual mixed 4x400 medley has such an overpowering automatic best order. It looks like that's not the case. The built in advantage looks on the order of about 1 second. If that can be overcome then your method would show it. However, even then the statistical psychological advantage to swimming females last as mentioned above might overrule the solution using your method. Note the fact that only the U.S. swam a male in the last leg.

PairTheBoard

Yesterday, 07:03 PM   #16752
BrianTheMick2
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Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 18,267
Re: SMP Life is Being Drunk -Random Content thread

Quote:
 Originally Posted by PairTheBoard Evidently your method can be improved upon in the mixed 4x400 freestyle relay. According to your method it shouldn't matter which order you swim the males/females as long as they are the fastest two male and female swimmers. But statistics show that swimming the females last is better due to psychological factors.
My method had nothing to do with a non-medley event.

Quote:
 In the extreme example I gave above I'm not saying there's a better solution than the one you'd get using your method. I am saying it's worth knowing that in this extreme case the solution is automatic and obvious, requiring no such calculations. And if someone swam a male in the last leg claiming to have used your method it would be clear they had made some kind of mistake.
You are cheating. To know what you are saying is "worth knowing" you have to have all the data to calculate and do the calculations.

I'm presuming that in medley events that you don't get to pick the order of strokes. If you do, and there are indeed some factors that matter for that, you still pick the smallest sum of times that satisfy the constraints of the competition

Quote:
 Similarly, I'm saying it would be worth knowing if the actual mixed 4x400 medley has such an overpowering automatic best order. It looks like that's not the case. The built in advantage looks on the order of about 1 second. If that can be overcome then your method would show it. However, even then the statistical psychological advantage to swimming females last as mentioned above might overrule the solution using your method. Note the fact that only the U.S. swam a male in the last leg.
My method would clearly not show such a thing, as it ignores it completely.

I have a feeling that you would mostly come up with the same answer for most teams that I would*, but my method would have fewer errors. For instance, Iceland (if they had two more swimmers) would be correct (have no choice but to) put a man in for the breaststroke and a woman for freestyle regardless of your method's results.

Also, I doubt it (if it is indeed an effect that isn't simply due to differences in the size of male/female time disparities for each stroke) is psychological factors. To show that, you'd need quite a bit of data to rule out other factors. Swimming in calm water, riding the wake of another swimmer, passing the wake of another swimmer, and a bunch of other swim-related stuff that I know even less about. You'd also need a robust method for removal of data for instances of lost-cause, etc.

*For the same reason as both methods would come up with the same answer if you were considering a mixed medley for pissing for aim, pissing for distance, chugging a beer and doing push-ups.

Yesterday, 08:47 PM   #16753
PairTheBoard
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Re: SMP Life is Being Drunk -Random Content thread

Quote:
 Originally Posted by PairTheBoard I just watched the Olympics swimming event, Mixed 4x100m Medley Relay. They swim back stroke, breast stroke, butterfly, and free style 100m legs. Each team swims 2 women and 2 men and can put them in any legs they want. Amazingly, not every team mixed the women and men the same way. There should be no question which man-woman mix is optimum. My guess is to swim the women in the fastest styles, certainly the free style and I'm guessing the back stroke. Intuitively, the women should tend to swim each style about the same percent slower than the men. So they lose the least absolute time in the fastest styles. When I learned the U.S.A. was swimming their biggest star, a man, as the anchor in the free style I predicted they wouldn't have a chance. Every other team swam a woman in the free style leg. Pretty dumb imo. The U.S. didn't medal. PairTheBoard

I retract the bolded. I was wrong to jump to that conclusion. And the team had bad luck with the butterfly swimmer losing her goggles.

PairTheBoard

Yesterday, 11:29 PM   #16754
PairTheBoard
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 9,648
Re: SMP Life is Being Drunk -Random Content thread

Quote:
 Originally Posted by BrianTheMick2 Swimming in calm water, riding the wake of another swimmer, passing the wake of another swimmer, and a bunch of other swim-related stuff
I believe the article NextCard linked to mentioned those things as factors. It also mentioned a gender difference in performance between racing from behind or with a lead.

PairTheBoard

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