Random dude on Reddit solves hard problem of conciousness - Page 7

I don't think quantum theory is much help. Even if quantum indeterminancy plays a significant role in brain activity it's still a materialist model providing not the slightest hint for why such a quantum computing machine should produce consciousness. Off topic, but I don't think randomness advances free will either.

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07-14-2018 , 01:38 PM

#152

DrModern

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Technically in the Penrose-Hameroff model consciousness is non-computational, so not a quantum computer (a determinate program that relies on qubits). Their argument is that the brain coordinates objective reduction, so it's non-random even if it's indeterminate.

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07-14-2018 , 01:59 PM

#153

VeeDDzz`

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The absurd is more real, perhaps.

Picture the logical as a game. Picture evidence as part of.
Some are fascinated. Others have other games.

What game, if any, can catch the will' o the wisp?

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07-14-2018 , 03:22 PM

#154

spanktehbadwookie

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Who has time to calculate whether or not they have consciousness , are being it, or simply do it? Would your result only apply to you if no other consciousness did it? I guess that's absurd? Until you do it, have it and just be. Then it's really absurd?

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07-14-2018 , 04:02 PM

#155

Howard Beale

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That Witten and Greene (amongst others) say what they say is good enough for me to disregard the materialists. What consciousness is is unknown and it's not going to be known w/ the current laws of physics and if something is unknown I find it hilarious to be told how it works esp from the people who first tell us that they don't have free will.

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07-14-2018 , 04:34 PM

#156

Zeno

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If you drink enough Beer you become unconscious. Sleep is an unconscious state. And still, the brain is rattling down the tracks, even if memory is inefficient.

It is all materialist (brain waves etc.). All the way down and all the way up. That some of the materialist sequence is unknown is to be expected given the current limitations of knowledge and empirical evidence. Science will chip away at this; the result is unwritten, yet.

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07-14-2018 , 04:52 PM

#157

PairTheBoard

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DrModern

the brain coordinates objective reduction

That sounds like it could be an important idea. When it comes to brain function there may be more to decoherence than current physics theory offers? Something less "mechanical"?

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07-14-2018 , 05:07 PM

#158

plaaynde

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Is anybody here questioning if there's anything but physics (and hence chemistry and biology) behind consciousness? What would that be?

Old concepts of spirit.

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07-14-2018 , 05:19 PM

#159

John21

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Quote:

Originally Posted by plaaynde

Is anybody here questioning if there's anything but physics (and hence chemistry and biology) behind consciousness? What would that be?

Old concepts of spirit.

“I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.”—Max Plank

“Although I think that life may be the result of an accident, I do not think that of consciousness. Consciousness cannot be accounted for in physical terms. For consciousness is absolutely fundamental. It cannot be accounted for in terms of anything else.”—Erwin Schrödinger

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07-14-2018 , 05:20 PM

#160

plaaynde

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Old men. A century ago. Remember Newton believed in God.

Without the stuff in our brains we are nothing. It just must be basal. But I agree it's interesting how the system, for example consciousness, "me", interacts with the parts, and that needs much research!

I think much of what was said say a century ago was for not looking totally atheist or nonspiritual, in the eyes of others, but especially in the eye of oneself.

Last edited by plaaynde; 07-14-2018 at 05:38 PM.

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07-14-2018 , 05:22 PM

#161

John21

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Quote:

Originally Posted by plaaynde

Old men. A century ago.

Nonetheless, they understood the issue better than you ever will.

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07-14-2018 , 05:32 PM

#162

spanktehbadwookie

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Quote:

Originally Posted by plaaynde

Is anybody here questioning if there's anything but physics (and hence chemistry and biology) behind consciousness? What would that be?

Old concepts of spirit.

That could be simply being.

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07-14-2018 , 05:41 PM

#163

plaaynde

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Originally Posted by spanktehbadwookie

That could be simply being.

Subjectively yes.

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07-14-2018 , 05:42 PM

#164

plaaynde

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Originally Posted by John21

Nonetheless, they understood the issue better than you ever will.

No, of course not. They didn't know **** about the brain. Do we agree consciousness is tied to the brain? I expanded a bit in the edit of the post.

Last edited by plaaynde; 07-14-2018 at 05:49 PM.

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07-14-2018 , 06:09 PM

#165

spanktehbadwookie

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Originally Posted by plaaynde

Subjectively yes.

No subject, no object. Or is it the other way around? Stretchy.

I am I be. Easier than trying to calculate what it is while pretending not to be it while doing it or at least having it or not, maybe, probably or 'help,what's some logical?'!

What's more absurd than complexity overlooking simplicity for the sake of the subject complexity? Logically absurd?

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07-14-2018 , 06:23 PM

#166

spanktehbadwookie

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Speaking of subjectivity, what's the first word you associate with consciousness?

I have spontaneity. Like consciousness, it's found to be a mystery, (how do you plan to do something spontaneously?) flips the bird at strictly reason at times, and works well with the imagination.

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07-14-2018 , 10:13 PM

#167

DrModern

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I like how poetical we are getting. Yes, spontaneity is the capacity to flip the bird at one's own calculations. To fly the coop of oneself. A blackbird hiding in the reeds that suddenly takes flight.

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07-14-2018 , 10:51 PM

#168

Howard Beale

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Quote:

Originally Posted by plaaynde

Old men. A century ago.

Witten is still w/ us and is probably the current 'smartest person in the world' and he thinks consciousness will remain a mystery despite his expectation that the brain science crew will make many discoveries over the coming decades. He doesn't think that we need a new physics yet consciousness will remain a mystery therefor physics can't explain it. I'll place my bet on his opinion.

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07-14-2018 , 11:38 PM

#169

plaaynde

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Originally Posted by spanktehbadwookie

I think science points towards there is a world regardless of the subject. And that the feeling of subject, consciousness, is an evolutionary benefit for a being, even if it's probably much of an illusion. But it makes you trying to survive on a grander scale than just avoiding pain. Maybe preventing suicide, or letting a leader send one to the death in battle too easily?

Last edited by plaaynde; 07-14-2018 at 11:55 PM.

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07-14-2018 , 11:39 PM

#170

spanktehbadwookie

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Originally Posted by DrModern

Well yeah, almost anyone can mimic and rearrange published thoughts. Entire Ivory towers are made from such banal ventures.

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07-14-2018 , 11:44 PM

#171

spanktehbadwookie

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Quote:

Originally Posted by plaaynde

I think science points towards there is a world regardless of the subject. And that the feeling of subject, consciousness, is an evolutionary benefit for a being, even if it's much of an illusion.

I know scientific knowledge is based on observations and involves objects and subjects. That does lead thinking to pointing in directions from that.

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07-14-2018 , 11:57 PM

#172

plaaynde

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Originally Posted by Howard Beale

Do you think we'll get nearer and nearer? I do.

For me consciousness isn't a holy cow, so to speak.

But will look into Witten.

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07-15-2018 , 12:10 AM

#173

Howard Beale

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Quote:

Originally Posted by plaaynde

Do you think we'll get nearer and nearer? I do.

For me consciousness isn't a holy cow, so to speak.

But will look into Witten.

The disciplines involved will make discovery after discovery and w/ each one will think 'just a bit more' and they will produce a physical explanation for consciousness. I won't be around the day when they just give up and call it an illusion.

Btw, I got what I got re Witten from the vid above but he's not the only one. I posted a link quoting Brian Greene as saying that he would leave physics in order to find out what consciousness is. The fact of the matter is that it's nature and working are unknown at this time and it seems unreasonable to believe that further understanding of the physical system will someday absolutely explain it.