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09-16-2023 , 02:17 AM
The Evolution of Postmodern Thought - Helen Pluckrose




PairTheBoard
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09-16-2023 , 05:00 AM
Yeah, I bet they'd let her have a ticket to visit the Cosmic House.

https://www.jencksfoundation.org/cosmic-house/about
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09-16-2023 , 10:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PairTheBoard
The Evolution of Postmodern Thought - Helen Pluckrose




PairTheBoard
I don't particularly want to watch all 34 minutes of this - could you summarise please?
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09-16-2023 , 11:05 AM
Watched the first few minutes. Hearty eye rolls. This belongs in the politics section. The most arrogant section of society is centrists who constantly equivocate right and left. 'Ooh aren't pronouns hard'. No, they're pretty damn easy, actually.

As a counterpoint:

The battle over liberalism is also the battle over the word “liberalism.” In recent years, this semantic and substantive debate has set two main camps in opposition. The first, championed by the post-liberal Notre Dame professor Patrick Deneen, sees liberalism as a never-ending search for individual autonomy. On this view, liberals, by continually maximizing individual choices, dismember the structure of civil society and erode the bonds from which we derive our sense of identity. Hiding behind the mask of tolerance, liberalism attacks faith, nationhood, citizenship, culture, and custom—until nothing remains to obstruct its culmination in license. In desperate need of higher callings, atomized individuals succumb to nihilism as modern societies head toward collapse. Such is the post-liberal story.

On the other side, defenders like Francis Fukuyama portray liberalism as a moderate, if often frustrating, means of remedying human ills. Balancing communal harmony with individual sovereignty, liberal societies enable citizens to choose their own path. Liberalism might not itself provide meaning or purpose, but it does guarantee a basic set of rights, liberties, and protections from state power. As the twentieth century grimly taught us, the preservation of human freedom requires the rejection of utopianism. Critics of liberalism build castles in the sky; liberals themselves accept the fallen nature of man, the necessary imperfections of politics, and the need for prudence in statesmanship. Liberalism, this view holds, cannot promise happiness or heroism, but it can deliver peace and prosperity. This picture might seem unglamorous, particularly for young minds in search of excitement or deeper meaning, but it’s the best for which we moderns can hope.

In Liberalism Against Itself, Samuel Moyn, an intellectual historian and professor at Yale Law School, challenges the terms of this divide. If critics of liberalism misrepresent its content, so do liberalism’s supposed defenders. Once upon a time, liberals spoke the language of self-creation. They did not seek mere neutrality toward ways of life; nor did they want to reduce politics to the provision of basic rights and liberties. The architects of the Enlightenment wrote boldly, envisioning the triumph of reason over superstition, of progress over stagnation, of individual expression over collective censorship. They did not desire simply to live next to their fellow man in peace. Theirs was a promethean call to empower human creativity, vanquish prejudices, and shield the most vulnerable from all tyrannies, public or private. How did this initial vision get lost in the history of the liberal idea? How did another vision, less ambitious, even cautious, come to replace it? Why has liberalism undermined itself from within? To answer these questions, Moyn turns to a period (the Cold War) and to certain thinkers from that time who personify the brand of liberalism that he blames for our current ills.

From: https://www.city-journal.org/article...by-samuel-moyn

A review of the book 'liberalism against itself', which seeks to identify the pressures on liberalism and how it's changed.
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09-16-2023 , 12:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wazz
Watched the first few minutes. Hearty eye rolls. This belongs in the politics section. The most arrogant section of society is centrists who constantly equivocate right and left. 'Ooh aren't pronouns hard'. No, they're pretty damn easy, actually.

As a counterpoint:

From: https://www.city-journal.org/article...by-samuel-moyn

A review of the book 'liberalism against itself', which seeks to identify the pressures on liberalism and how it's changed.

I was most interested in the remainder of her talk in which she gave what I thought was a succinct description of postmodernism and its evolution. As I understand her, Pluckrose's view is that postmodernism self destructed in the 1980's and was revived in the 1990's as "Identity Politics". I'm more interested in the philosophy than the politics, although it's hard to separate the two if the politics have the philosophic underpinnings. Anyway, maybe we can concentrate on the philosophy here. It seems to me to intersect with ideas expressed here lately about reality.

As I understand her, Pluckrose says that, aside from its "Identity Politics" derivation, postmodern philosophy is dead in academia today. While I've heard others say it has conquered academia and is ubiquitous within it.

Does Pluckrose describe the philosophy of postmodernism accurately? Is she fair in her treatment of its evolution and revival as "Identity Politics"?

PairTheBoard

Last edited by PairTheBoard; 09-16-2023 at 01:07 PM. Reason: typo
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09-17-2023 , 10:52 PM
The better way to think of all shifts in philosophy is that they were a response to the concerns of the time. Modernism/enlightenment didn't take into account that some people/cultures might not desire the same things as rich northeastern Europeans and (basically the same thing) powerful US folk. So, postmodernism arose.

The current milieu is that we have a fight between morons who think that everyone deserves to be told that they are beautiful and different morons who think that ugly people need to be told that they are ugly.

I am, of course, on the side of the truly righteous.
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09-18-2023 , 06:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTheMick2
The better way to think of all shifts in philosophy is that they were a response to the concerns of the time. Modernism/enlightenment didn't take into account that some people/cultures might not desire the same things as rich northeastern Europeans and (basically the same thing) powerful US folk. So, postmodernism arose.

The current milieu is that we have a fight between morons who think that everyone deserves to be told that they are beautiful and different morons who think that ugly people need to be told that they are ugly.

I am, of course, on the side of the truly righteous.
Please beware the centrist trap of false equivocation. I know it feels good, but it's a narrative designed to have you feel superior to others. It may be moronic to call everyone beautiful (is it? is it really?) but it's far less moronic than those who think the right to offend should be enshrined.
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09-18-2023 , 08:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wazz
Please beware the centrist trap of false equivocation. I know it feels good, but it's a narrative designed to have you feel superior to others. It may be moronic to call everyone beautiful (is it? is it really?) but it's far less moronic than those who think the right to offend should be enshrined.
That is also part of the milieu. It really shouldn't need to be said that saying something mean is not nice, but you felt the need to because it is (strangely) a problem currently.

I'm optimistic that it will be resolved within the next 50 years or so. I think that we will eventually figure out that randomly giving subjective opinions of someone's worth isn't actually helpful to them, and that seeking out random subjective opinions of one's worth is particularly unhelpful.
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09-19-2023 , 10:16 AM
Dr. James Lindsay & Helen Pluckrose - 'Cynical Theories'
Grievance Studies Affair
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grievance_studies_affair



Note that the crossing out of "Critical" and replacing it with "Cynical" in the title of Pluckrose and Lindsay's book is a call back (joke?) to the Postmodernist Derrida.

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trace_(deconstruction)
"Derrida's first indebtedness to Heidegger lies in his use of the notion of sous rature ('under erasure'). To write 'Under erasure' is to write a word, cross it out, and then print both word and deletion. The word is inaccurate (which itself is an inaccurate word), hence the cross, yet the word is necessary, hence the printing of the word. This is one of the principal strategies of Derrida: "(possibility) of a discourse which borrows from a heritage the resources necessary for the deconstruction of that heritage itself".[18] This is similar to the concept of bricolage coined by anthropologist Claude Lévi-Strauss. Derrida himself explains:"


PairTheBoard

Last edited by PairTheBoard; 09-19-2023 at 10:33 AM.
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09-20-2023 , 01:01 AM
Critical Theory - Dr. Alexander K. Smith




How did this anti-authoritarian project turn into the absolutist beliefs described by Lindsay and Pluckrose above? Or did it?


PairTheBoard
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09-20-2023 , 07:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PairTheBoard
=
How did this anti-authoritarian project turn into the absolutist beliefs described by Lindsay and Pluckrose above? Or did it?


PairTheBoard
I didn't watch all of her video, but no, I don't believe it did. It can be tempting to paint the left as all the loud and angry voices we hear, but that would be a mistake.
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09-20-2023 , 08:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wazz
I didn't watch all of her video, but no, I don't believe it did. It can be tempting to paint the left as all the loud and angry voices we hear, but that would be a mistake.
It's not "loud and angry voices" they're describing here but an intellectual absolutism they claim is dominating academia. Maybe it's just sour grapes that they can't get their reactionary papers published.

Applied Postmodernism: How "Idea Laundering" is Crippling American Universities



PairTheBoard
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09-20-2023 , 08:42 AM
I'm not particularly well-dialled in when it comes to the state of american academia but I can totally imagine a hegemony of sorts that doesn't care particularly about 'free speech' and cares more about finding the truth and treating everyone with kindness. And those reactionaries that find themselves outside of such a hegemony might call it names because they resent being in the minority. But that doesn't make it just, or accurate. The right has systematically and specifically attempted to steal and pervert the economic and political centres of our education systems over the last ~80 years, and been highly successful. Our liberal social centre has not avoided some of this. Some basic ideas about civility are touted in theory and then thoroughly ignored by many facets of our society. We say 'oh I can't believe that X happens in 2023' but in reality we are highly regressive in a lot of ways. Anti-semitism is on the rise, racism is on the rise, some lgbtq academics believe that 2024 will be a year of bloodshed, class consciousness is at an all time low while false consciousness and class conflict are the order of the day. I have little patience for those academics who masquerade as centrists while bemoaning the state of our discourse. Read some damned Marx (not you, maybe you, but specifically these academics) or some damned Frankfurt School or Gramsci or Engels or Ivan Illich or even Freud. It just sounds like 'I used to be able to cuss out minorities and now because of cancel culture I can't say that stuff!'. It's kinda pathetic to me that people with a platform don't have enough intellectual rigour to distinguish between the right to free speech and the right to avoid consequences of that speech. Reactionaries is right. Making a name for yourself by saying provocative things is never going to go out of fashion.
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09-20-2023 , 09:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PairTheBoard
It's not "loud and angry voices" they're describing here but an intellectual absolutism they claim is dominating academia. Maybe it's just sour grapes that they can't get their reactionary papers published.



Applied Postmodernism: How "Idea Laundering" is Crippling American Universities







PairTheBoard
Quote:
Originally Posted by PairTheBoard
It's not "loud and angry voices" they're describing here but an intellectual absolutism they claim is dominating academia. Maybe it's just sour grapes that they can't get their reactionary papers published.




PairTheBoard
It is, and has been, pretty easy to get published. It appears that this group even gets invited to do panel discussions, which is much harder.

My guess is that they do not like critical theory and are sad that some other people like it.
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09-21-2023 , 07:36 PM
Pretty standard reactionary fare. More and more we're seeing and going to see reactionary 'centrists', who by any reasonable overton window would be seen as capitalist apologists and fascist enablers. People who want to make a name for themselves by attacking whatever orthodoxy they find convenient.

Related to this, I believe that the 2020s and/or 2030s will be the decade of the female fascist. We've already got Meloni, and I think girlbossing will translate very easily and quickly to girljackbooting and girlheiling.
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09-21-2023 , 09:21 PM
I think that the next group to gain traction will be those who aren't interested in talking about politics. Unfortunately, no one will notice.

I was hopeful (a few decades back) that the chasm between explicit beliefs and action would have played a part in that. Some sort of shame about being gauche caviar either keeping people quiet or actually doing something.
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09-22-2023 , 01:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wazz
Pretty standard reactionary fare. More and more we're seeing and going to see reactionary 'centrists', who by any reasonable overton window would be seen as capitalist apologists and fascist enablers. People who want to make a name for themselves by attacking whatever orthodoxy they find convenient.

Related to this, I believe that the 2020s and/or 2030s will be the decade of the female fascist. We've already got Meloni, and I think girlbossing will translate very easily and quickly to girljackbooting and girlheiling.
This post closely represents postmodernist literature as I understand it, in the sense that I do not understand it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by wazz
Watched the first few minutes. Hearty eye rolls. This belongs in the politics section.
This

Quote:
Originally Posted by wazz
Please beware the centrist trap of false equivocation. I know it feels good, but it's a narrative designed to have you feel superior to others. It may be moronic to call everyone beautiful (is it? is it really?) but it's far less moronic than those who think the right to offend should be enshrined.
Brian is a troll

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTheMick2
My guess is that they do not like critical theory and are sad that some other people like it.
Sad seems to be an understatement
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09-22-2023 , 09:57 AM
(young) Michael Sugrue on "The Frankfurt School"



My undestanding is The Frankfurt School informs Critical Theory but it's debatable to what extent.


PairTheBoard
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09-22-2023 , 02:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PairTheBoard

My undestanding is The Frankfurt School informs Critical Theory but it's debatable to what extent.





PairTheBoard
You are trying too hard to categorize. The Frankfurt school folk noticed that despite Marx being published that their society did not turn into a Marxist one. They set about to change that. A lot of their ideas were taken up by other Critical Theories.

The audio is better in this one:

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/critical-theory/
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09-23-2023 , 03:14 AM
99.9999 percent of the population of the planet is much more interested in the possibility of werewolves than the drivel you morons are posting about.

Stop jacking off. Life is too short to waste on drivel.
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09-23-2023 , 07:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeno
99.9999 percent of the population of the planet is much more interested in the possibility of werewolves than the drivel you morons are posting about.

Stop jacking off. Life is too short to waste on drivel.
Why should I or you or anyone gaf about something purely based on how popular it is? Feels very 'high school' to be concerned about what I'm interested and deriding for it not being a popular thing. Personally, I find history and sociology pretty fascinating. Do you only like werewolves and Harry Potter and trainers and tiktok? What a boring life.
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09-23-2023 , 10:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeno
Stop jacking off. Life is too short to waste on drivel.
I apologize for the drivel.


Foucault: Power, Knowledge and Post-structuralism
Michael Sugrue




PairTheBoard
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09-26-2023 , 09:23 AM
Jean-Francois Lyotard: The Post-modern Condition
Michael Sugrue

See the last 5 to 10 minutes for the follies.





PairTheBoard
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09-27-2023 , 09:05 AM
What is Postmodernism
Ryan Chapman

Identity Politics as Radical Postmodernism and Anti-modern





PairTheBoard
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