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Old 10-02-2010, 08:23 PM   #201
Akileos
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Re: Official Outer Limits/Debunking Thread

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Originally Posted by plaaynde View Post
$30 million ? You´re kidding? If I remember correctly, the Apollo project cost 20+ billion back in 1969. How much has inflation worked after that? Could check it up, but it may be that the dollar to day is worth one 10-30th of the dollar of 1969, let´s say one 20th. Then the Apollo project would cost 400+ billion dollars. That is more than 10,000 times more than the minor prize of 30 million dollars.
+1

and it is my understanding NASA's budget for the current fiscal year is approximately $19 billion. Which is an indication of how difficult it is for them to fund additional trips to the moon.

I have concluded that Donnicolo is not interested in knowledge but in pseudo knowledge.
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Old 10-02-2010, 08:24 PM   #202
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Re: Official Outer Limits/Debunking Thread

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Originally Posted by chezlaw View Post
RGT has RGT
LOL Wp.
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Old 10-03-2010, 12:39 AM   #203
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Re: Official Outer Limits/Debunking Thread

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Originally Posted by Akileos View Post
I have concluded that Donnicolo is not interested in knowledge but in pseudo knowledge.
donniccolo. I´m beginning to see that you really believe that man hasn´t been on the moon. That has to be close to a religious belief.
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Old 10-03-2010, 05:19 AM   #204
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Re: Official Outer Limits/Debunking Thread

wow. i'm the one being compared to religion when you're the ones who believe in something you cannot prove!! that makes me

in reality, we are simply going to keep going back and forth, considering you cannot walk on the moon to prove to me that it happened, and i cannot prove to you that it didn't happen because for whatever reason, you are inclined to believe whatever NASA/US Govt tells you.

obv NASA/Religion are always correct about everything they say or do. thinking that either a religious organization or a government entity would ever lie to the masses is just preposterous!
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Old 10-03-2010, 05:37 AM   #205
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Re: Official Outer Limits/Debunking Thread

let me try to put it another way:

ask yourself this: why do you believe man has walked on the moon?

let's walk through it--

your answer is most likely this: "because that is what i learned in school" or "because that is what my parents told me" or "because that is what NASA told me" or "because nearly everyone else believes that". help me if i'm missing some.

for those of you using money as a crutch - please stop. to think that the US gov't would nix their entire Apollo moon program with 3 missions still remaining because they didn't have enough money is laughable! if you buy into their story up until 1972, the US was in the midst of creating the most technologically advanced equipment in the history of human kind (in just 8 years... using 1960s technology!) $20b ($170b inflation adjusted) to a country that literally prints money with no regard for anything is not a reason to discontinue the most ground breaking achievement of all time.

since the 7 Apollo missions between 1969-1972, how many times has man travelled outside of low earth orbit? (leo = 100-1,200 miles above earth) the answer is 0.

how far away is the moon? avg distance is about 240,000 miles from earth.

so, from 1969-1972 using 60s technology developed in 8 years from scratch usa lands 6 times on the moon 240,000 miles away and return to earth. the most incredible feat in the history of humankind using the most incredible technology (saturn V rockets, moon lander, space suit, etc) ever developed and nothing is a close 2nd.

1973-2010 - ?

at what point will you start to use your brain to think instead of just insisting your parents/teachers couldn't have been wrong? maybe in the year 2069 when the world is celebrating the 100 year anniversary of a feat that still hasn't been replicated?

from the tone of some of you, i doubt you'll ever realize that it is a possibility that i am correct that man has not been to the moon. its sad that you don't keep an open mind and that you can be 100% certain of something you cannot prove. that is where we differ. i realize that there's a chance they pulled it off but i feel that it is far more likely that they did not.
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Old 10-03-2010, 10:45 AM   #206
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Re: Official Outer Limits/Debunking Thread

So money really grows on trees? Wow, that's far more believable than some story about astronauts walking on the moon.
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Old 10-03-2010, 11:59 AM   #207
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Re: Official Outer Limits/Debunking Thread

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RGT has RGT
Which is one reason I helped create it.



-Zeno
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Old 10-03-2010, 12:49 PM   #208
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Re: Official Outer Limits/Debunking Thread

I guess it feels good to believe one is among the chosen ones. I have never managed to fool myself in that way for longer times (i think).
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Old 10-03-2010, 01:47 PM   #209
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Re: Official Outer Limits/Debunking Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by donniccolo View Post
let me try to put it another way:

ask yourself this: why do you believe man has walked on the moon?

let's walk through it--

your answer is most likely this: "because that is what i learned in school" or "because that is what my parents told me" or "because that is what NASA told me" or "because nearly everyone else believes that". help me if i'm missing some.

for those of you using money as a crutch - please stop. to think that the US gov't would nix their entire Apollo moon program with 3 missions still remaining because they didn't have enough money is laughable! if you buy into their story up until 1972, the US was in the midst of creating the most technologically advanced equipment in the history of human kind (in just 8 years... using 1960s technology!) $20b ($170b inflation adjusted) to a country that literally prints money with no regard for anything is not a reason to discontinue the most ground breaking achievement of all time.

since the 7 Apollo missions between 1969-1972, how many times has man travelled outside of low earth orbit? (leo = 100-1,200 miles above earth) the answer is 0.

how far away is the moon? avg distance is about 240,000 miles from earth.

so, from 1969-1972 using 60s technology developed in 8 years from scratch usa lands 6 times on the moon 240,000 miles away and return to earth. the most incredible feat in the history of humankind using the most incredible technology (saturn V rockets, moon lander, space suit, etc) ever developed and nothing is a close 2nd.

1973-2010 - ?

at what point will you start to use your brain to think instead of just insisting your parents/teachers couldn't have been wrong? maybe in the year 2069 when the world is celebrating the 100 year anniversary of a feat that still hasn't been replicated?

from the tone of some of you, i doubt you'll ever realize that it is a possibility that i am correct that man has not been to the moon. its sad that you don't keep an open mind and that you can be 100% certain of something you cannot prove. that is where we differ. i realize that there's a chance they pulled it off but i feel that it is far more likely that they did not.
So you admit your googlelunarxprize thing demonstrated nothing?

Also, how do you know anything about science or history? Who do you trust?

Finally, do you remember reading any posts directed towards you in this very thread? How can you possibly conclude that we're the ones not thinking when you continue to post the same illogical, misleading, nonfactual rubbish?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benholio View Post
From scratch? All branches of the US military were developing long range missiles in the early 1950's. Development of the Saturn rockets started before NASA was formed.

The first full-pressure suit was used as early as 1931. A hard-shell suit that was the predecessor to the suits used by NASA was developed in the early 1950's and was being used in vacuum chambers.

The technology involved in this was developed over a much longer period than 8 years and by multiple private, government and international agencies.

Well sure, why would we send these things further away than an earth orbit?

If you just want to throw numbers out there for shock value, we sent the Mars rovers out at least 34,000,000 miles (distance to mars in 2003, which was a relative minimum).
Quote:
Originally Posted by atakdog View Post
Yes, in 2069 I would still believe it, unless here's reason to believe that are good reasons to go back yet we still haven't. See, that's the thing you seem continually to miss: we went in the 60s and 70s to prove that we could, basically. Now that we have, we need a good reason to spend the enormous amount of money it would take to go back. We already know what's there, pretty much, many of the things we could do there are just as easily and far more cheaply done from orbit, and there's no reason to believe that any mining or such could be commercially viable. Until one of those things changes, I don't infer anything from our failure to do it again.
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Old 10-03-2010, 08:18 PM   #210
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Re: Official Outer Limits/Debunking Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by donniccolo View Post
let me try to put it another way:

ask yourself this: why do you believe man has walked on the moon?

let's walk through it--

your answer is most likely this: "because that is what i learned in school" or "because that is what my parents told me" or "because that is what NASA told me" or "because nearly everyone else believes that". help me if i'm missing some.

for those of you using money as a crutch - please stop. to think that the US gov't would nix their entire Apollo moon program with 3 missions still remaining because they didn't have enough money is laughable! if you buy into their story up until 1972, the US was in the midst of creating the most technologically advanced equipment in the history of human kind (in just 8 years... using 1960s technology!) $20b ($170b inflation adjusted) to a country that literally prints money with no regard for anything is not a reason to discontinue the most ground breaking achievement of all time.

since the 7 Apollo missions between 1969-1972, how many times has man travelled outside of low earth orbit? (leo = 100-1,200 miles above earth) the answer is 0.

how far away is the moon? avg distance is about 240,000 miles from earth.

so, from 1969-1972 using 60s technology developed in 8 years from scratch usa lands 6 times on the moon 240,000 miles away and return to earth. the most incredible feat in the history of humankind using the most incredible technology (saturn V rockets, moon lander, space suit, etc) ever developed and nothing is a close 2nd.

1973-2010 - ?

at what point will you start to use your brain to think instead of just insisting your parents/teachers couldn't have been wrong? maybe in the year 2069 when the world is celebrating the 100 year anniversary of a feat that still hasn't been replicated?

from the tone of some of you, i doubt you'll ever realize that it is a possibility that i am correct that man has not been to the moon. its sad that you don't keep an open mind and that you can be 100% certain of something you cannot prove. that is where we differ. i realize that there's a chance they pulled it off but i feel that it is far more likely that they did not.


Donniccolo, it appears you think that one can disprove the moon landings by just using thought experiments. I wonder if you've ever attempted to gather evidence in an objective fashion. If so, you would find that the evidence for the moon landings is severely overwhelming the evidence against.

I can concoct any scenario in our everyday lives which noone can be 100% certain of (IE: Are we living in a computer simulation, and in reality our bodies are ruled by a race of special unicorns who have three genitalia each). If I made such a claim, the burden of proof would certainly fall on me - you cannot expect people to 'open their minds' about believing such a minute possibility as "the moon landings were faked".

The burden of proof lies completely on you, my friend.

(and if you don't think so, then the method by which you calibrate your judgements towards this particular topic is flawed.)


Oh and something about the moon landing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wym04J_3Ls0&feature=fvw

This show is for kids, but it may give you some idea of how you should be approaching and testing your claims.

Last edited by Homes; 10-03-2010 at 08:33 PM.
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Old 10-03-2010, 08:52 PM   #211
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Re: Official Outer Limits/Debunking Thread

By the way - the most likely answer as to why we haven't sent people that far since the original bunch of moon visits : It's just not good business, because there's nothing out there that we can't get back home. (Its also pretty dangerous - didn't you watch Apollo 13?)

Nobody from Europe would have gone back to the Americas if they had found a barren desert - probably some would end up doubting the first voyages ever happened.

Last edited by Homes; 10-03-2010 at 08:58 PM.
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Old 10-03-2010, 10:47 PM   #212
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Re: Official Outer Limits/Debunking Thread

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Originally Posted by Homes View Post
By the way - the most likely answer as to why we haven't sent people that far since the original bunch of moon visits : It's just not good business, because there's nothing out there that we can't get back home. (Its also pretty dangerous - didn't you watch Apollo 13?)

Nobody from Europe would have gone back to the Americas if they had found a barren desert - probably some would end up doubting the first voyages ever happened.
and its not very interesting. my parents generation still talk in awe about the original moon landings, the whole world was watching. Now, because every sane person has no serious doubt that its already been done we might not even notice if they did it again.
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Old 10-04-2010, 06:42 PM   #213
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Re: Official Outer Limits/Debunking Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by holmes
Oh and something about the moon landing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wym04J_3Ls0&feature=fvw

This show is for kids, but it may give you some idea of how you should be approaching and testing your claims.
Cool video. Love the most upvoted comment though.

Quote:
...explain why the shuttle discovery took pictures of stars in colour and the apollo fake missions had black starless space
A conventional explanation to do with exposure times and contrast seems to escape him, although it lies very close at hand. Surely people with imaginations creative enough to dream up these plots could also find more mundane reasoning which fits the observations.

So are these people led to believe in a conspiracy, or do they want to believe in a conspiracy?
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Old 10-04-2010, 09:53 PM   #214
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Re: Official Outer Limits/Debunking Thread

Is there anything donniccolo could do to prove he has been to Columbus?
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Old 10-11-2010, 02:34 AM   #215
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Re: Official Outer Limits/Debunking Thread

I suggest reading this short essay by Lawrence M. Krauss found in the September Issue of Scientific American:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...ng-dangerously

Excerpt from the above article:


"I hereby wish to bestow my Worst Abusers of Quantum Mechanics for Fun and Profit (but Mostly Profit) award on the following:

Deepak Chopra: I have read numerous pieces by him on why quantum mechanics provides rationales for everything from the existence of God to the possibility of changing the past. Nothing I have ever read, however, suggests he has enough understanding of quantum mechanics to pass an undergraduate course I might teach on the subject.

The Secret: This best-selling book, which spawned a self-help industry, seems to be built in part on the claim that quantum physics implies a “law of attraction” that suggests good thoughts will make good things happen. It doesn’t.

Transcendental meditation: TMers argue that they can fly by achieving a “lower quantum-mechanical ground state” and that the more people who practice TM, the less violent the world will become. This last idea at least is in accord with quantum mechanics, to the extent that if everyone on the planet did nothing but meditate there wouldn’t be time for violence (or acts of kindness, either).

For the record: Quantum mechanics does not deny the existence of objective reality. Nor does it imply that mere thoughts can change external events. Effects still require causes, so if you want to change the universe, you need to act on it.

Feynman once said, “Science is imagination in a straitjacket.” It is ironic that in the case of quantum mechanics, the people without the straitjackets are generally the nuts. "

************************************************** ***************

Last edited by Zeno; 10-12-2010 at 09:44 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 10-12-2010, 07:53 AM   #216
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Re: Official Outer Limits/Debunking Thread

Thanks for the article Zeno.
I've always thought that Deepak Chopra was the most talented new age pranksters that we have.
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Old 10-13-2010, 10:14 PM   #217
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Re: Official Outer Limits/Debunking Thread

The thing is, when Deepak talks about 'quantum' he is using the word metaphorically, poetically even. It's the damned scientists who nicked his word.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-FaXD_igv4
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Old 10-18-2010, 12:31 AM   #218
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Re: Official Fringe Topics Thread

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Originally Posted by donniccolo View Post
i cannot get over the timeline that everyone so blindly believes

1961: USA's space exploration totals 15 manned minutes in low earth orbit

1961-1968: NASA scientists work diligently to create, from scratch, the most sophisticated technology ever dreamt by man (spacesuits, Saturn V rocket, lunar orbiter, etc)

1969-1972: USA sends 7 manned missions to the moon (6 land on the moon and return safely while one of them becomes a Tom Hanks movie)

These missions manage to successfully leave Earths atmosphere, zip 200k+ miles to the moon's orbit, deploy a Lunar Module to safely land 69 miles below on the surface of the moon and then the Module is able to blast off the surface of the moon days later and reconnect with the Command Module which was orbiting the moon at around 4,000 mph.

We are to believe that they nailed this mission 6 times in 7 attempts (in outer space mind you) where as it took thousands of trials and errors on Earth to even get into Earth's orbit.

This all really sits well in your mind? w/ 60s technology? developed in < 8 years? in the 60s?! ...
For those of you that felt like a lot was missing from this purposed timeline and facts of U.S. and Soviet space programs here are a couple convenient resources which are backed up by sources:

http://www.centennialofflight.gov/es...lunar/SP21.htm

http://www.russianspaceweb.com/chron...moon_race.html

I found this part of the chronology interesting considering some of the later fringe posts about Soviets behind ahead*:
Quote:
Thus, by 1965, the Soviet Moon program had split into two parallel strands: one, the N1-L3 to land cosmonauts on the Moon, and another, the L1 to send cosmonauts around the Moon.

All these disagreements cost the Soviets in terms of time and money. The Soviet Moon program was also hampered by Korolev's premature death in 1966. He was succeeded by his deputy Vasily Mishin.

The second link is also interesting as you can see donniccolo was unaware of the nine NASA Ranger missions the U.S. launched before attempting to send manned missions to the moon. Given his disposition one can see how it might be easier to buy into the lunar hoax phenomenon
Quote:
We are to believe that they nailed this mission 6 times in 7 attempts (in outer space mind you) where as it took thousands of trials and errors on Earth to even get into Earth's orbit.
The first six Ranger missions failed and the following missions succeeded each getting better, here is more detail on that if interested:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranger_program

Finally, I saw another post where someone actually linked Mr. Cosnette's website from 2001. Mythbusters did a fine enough job debunking similar claims but here is a more detailed debunking of Mr. Cosnette specifically if you want to see it:
http://www.bautforum.com/showthread....-Dave-Cosnette

*I actually found this while looking up an explosion I remembered reading about in a Time/Life series about the space race that took out many Soviet scientists during a test launch, it may well be the explosion talked about in the link and such a loss of personnel would have been devastating to the program.
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Old 11-24-2010, 01:38 AM   #219
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Re: Official Outer Limits/Debunking Thread

It's possible that we will see the backwards of a star explosion that is flying away from us faster than speed of light? At any time in our human history was perceived a noticeable slower movement of anything in space because we are traveling away from it?

*bump btw
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Old 11-24-2010, 01:48 AM   #220
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Re: Official Outer Limits/Debunking Thread

Does pharmacy industry shutdown research of medicine that would be cheaper?

I've seen venom industry do that, even to the prejudice of the quality and production of the food. Would like to know if there is notice of this being done on this area also...
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Old 11-24-2010, 11:57 AM   #221
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Re: Official Outer Limits/Debunking Thread

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Does pharmacy industry shutdown research of medicine that would be cheaper?
It wouldn´t be cheaper before their patent of the developed medicine expires. The company can choose wich price they set.
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Old 11-24-2010, 11:58 AM   #222
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Re: Official Outer Limits/Debunking Thread

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Originally Posted by LXThrottle View Post
It's possible that we will see the backwards of a star explosion that is flying away from us faster than speed of light? At any time in our human history was perceived a noticeable slower movement of anything in space because we are traveling away from it?

*bump btw
No.
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Old 11-24-2010, 06:50 PM   #223
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Re: Official Outer Limits/Debunking Thread

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It wouldn´t be cheaper before their patent of the developed medicine expires. The company can choose wich price they set.
Yeah you are correct.

What I was thinking was related to buying to stop the research or to not disclose the results of a third party research.
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Old 11-28-2010, 06:36 PM   #224
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Re: Official Outer Limits/Debunking Thread

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Originally Posted by LXThrottle View Post
Yeah you are correct.

What I was thinking was related to buying to stop the research or to not disclose the results of a third party research.
Probably, yes. A main virtue of capitalism.
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Old 11-30-2010, 06:39 PM   #225
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Re: Official Outer Limits/Debunking Thread

What is the a priori probability of the ratio of the diameter of sun and moon being within 0.05 of the ratio of the distance from the earth of sun and moon?

Moon:
diameter: 3.474E3 km
distance: 3.65E5 km

Sun:
diameter: 1.392E6 km
distance: 1.496E8 km

Moon diameter/Sun diameter = 2.50E-3
Moon distance/Sun distance = 2.44E-3

For the moon distance from earth I took a mean of the perigee and apogee.
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