Is morality possible without free will? - Science, Math and Philosophy Forum

This is a really basic question that has been talked about a lot before but its very important. I strongly believe that if our actions are determined, making us mere passive observers of our actions, morality in its true sense is impossible. However, some of the posters including Madnak who I highly respect seem to disagree. Whats your answer to this question and why?

Quote

10-25-2008 , 10:39 AM

Nielsio

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 23,398

Morality is impossible *with* free will.

Quote

10-25-2008 , 10:47 AM

chezlaw

Limey Bastard

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 46,881

morality is nothing to do with free-will

its a subset of the fact that nothing is to do with free-will

free-will is a nonsense concept.

Quote

10-25-2008 , 11:04 AM

Nielsio

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 23,398

Quote:

Originally Posted by chezlaw

morality is nothing to do with free-will

its a subset of the fact that nothing is to do with free-will

free-will is a nonsense concept.

Free will is a subclass of magic, which is a superclass of miracles and candy mountain.

Quote

10-25-2008 , 11:15 AM

Professor_Jones

banned

Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 352

I don't understand how free-will could be nonsense. When I play poker there are many decisions I make that could go either way. Especially when learning a new concept, I'll stop myself and decide if I should take the old line or try a new line instead. Sometimes I don't feel compelled to take either line so I just pick one arbitrarily to see what happens.

Quote

10-25-2008 , 11:17 AM

DMACM

banned

Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,917

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nielsio

Morality is impossible *with* free will.

Frankly I think this mischaracterizes their position. Free will is the idea that there are two causes in reality. There is one casuality for everything else and also another casuality originating from people's souls. To Kant this was a paradox to you and I this means that free will is probably an illusion. But free willers aren't saying that actions are random because they arent caused in an ordinary sense or that the actions are uncaused its simply a different cause from the one in the rest of the world.

Quote

10-25-2008 , 11:19 AM

DMACM

banned

Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,917

Quote:

Originally Posted by Professor_Jones

Sometimes I don't feel compelled to take either line so instead I just pick one arbitrarily to see what happens.

So your free actions are the ones you pick at random?

Quote

10-25-2008 , 11:20 AM

Professor_Jones

banned

Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 352

Quote:

Originally Posted by DMACM

So your free actions are the ones you pick at random?

Yes in this example, but the choice was still mine.

I believe my other choices in poker are "free actions" too. I'm not forced to choose something just because I feel compelled to choose it.

Last edited by Professor_Jones; 10-25-2008 at 11:41 AM.

Quote

10-25-2008 , 11:20 AM

Valuejacker

journeyman

Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 237

If morality exists, it is quantifiable.

In a scenario where free will doesn't exist, you can just as easily write a script in where morality exists as scripts where it doesn't.

As for the question of if morality exists at all, perhaps the illusion of such is enough.

Quote

10-25-2008 , 11:42 AM

#10

Nielsio

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 23,398

Quote:

Originally Posted by DMACM

If actions aren't caused by reality, then morality cannot exist.

Furthermore, saying that 'causality originates from people' means it doesn't exist, because it cannot interact with reality (which is the definition of not existing). The same is true for 'god': if god is 'outside of time', all that means is that it doesn't exist.

Quote

10-25-2008 , 12:00 PM

#11

tame_deuces

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 17,817

Actually I fail to admit I don't see why morality doesn't exist if free will doesn't exist. I also fail to see why morality shouldn't exist WITH free will.As far as it looks from my standpoint morality would simply be different things in the two situations.

And that isn't really a big problem because morality is just a term coined about observed actions, and those really doesn't change either way.

This post is not pro or con free will btw, I don't really care squat about free will.

Quote

10-25-2008 , 12:45 PM

#12

46:1

old hand

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 1,406

Is morality possible?

I'd give more credence to the possibility of free will existing than I give to morality existing.

Quote

10-25-2008 , 01:01 PM

#13

thylacine

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4,029

Regardless of what is true with this, criminals should be punished.

Quote

10-25-2008 , 01:05 PM

#14

farinaccio

journeyman

Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 308

Morality definitely exists. Even if it is not grounded in some universal that justifies it. We know individuals and society form and operate on moral principals. SO to say morality does not exist is wrong.

Free will feels real. Proving this is a different matter. We think we can choose this or that line, but when its all over, how do we know?

Quote

10-25-2008 , 01:09 PM

#15

Professor_Jones

banned

Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 352

Quote:

Originally Posted by farinaccio

Free will feels real. Proving this is a different matter. We think we can choose this or that line, but when its all over, how do we know?

So why not look at it in the present moment? Choose to do something you wouldn't normally do, then choose to do something you would normally do, and then just do something random like clap your hands. Congratulations, you have free will.

Quote

10-25-2008 , 01:10 PM

#16

livinitup0

Iron Chef of the Lounge

Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 7,038

dudedudedudedude shhshhshhshh

"the only reason we die....is because we accept it as an inevitability"

Quote

10-25-2008 , 01:13 PM

#17

farinaccio

journeyman

Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 308

JUst because I chose something out of character doesnt prove I was free to choose it.

Quote

10-25-2008 , 01:14 PM

#18

Professor_Jones

banned

Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 352

Quote:

Originally Posted by farinaccio

JUst because I chose something out of character doesnt prove I was free to choose it.

I think you're afraid of yourself, that's what I think. LOL

Quote

10-25-2008 , 01:15 PM

#19

46:1

old hand

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 1,406

Quote:

Originally Posted by farinaccio

If you see the Chicago Bulls beating the Detroit Pistons you can call it a miracle, justice, a victory or irrelevant.

Moral principles can not be measured. There are no units of moral law.

Morality is merely composed from highly subjective opinions trying to pass off as universal standards which we all should adhere to. Morality is just a word we tie-dye to this primal meme war to make it sound more appealing.

The horse exists. Georgieff the talking horse from winnipeg is a whole other ballgame. Give the animal its true name back.

(Non-)ethical behaviour does exist. Things can be better or worse, not good or bad. Morality is a semantic farce.

Quote

10-25-2008 , 01:16 PM

#20

farinaccio

journeyman

Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 308

Wrong. Even if I can't prove I was free to choose them, I take full resposibility for my actions and realize they define who I am.

Quote

10-25-2008 , 01:17 PM

#21

Professor_Jones

banned

Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 352

What are you avoiding then? I don't understand. Are you afraid of being wrong?

Quote

10-25-2008 , 01:18 PM

#22

farinaccio

journeyman

Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 308

Quote:

Originally Posted by 46:1

Did you read my post? Morality is unjustifiable, but it exists. People hold their own morality in their hearts and function according to it. It is arbitrary, but it is real. I think you agree with what I was writing.

Quote

10-25-2008 , 01:23 PM

#23

farinaccio

journeyman

Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 308

Quote:

Originally Posted by Professor_Jones

What are you avoiding then? I don't understand. Are you afraid to be wrong?

No, not at all. You seem to think that my claim that free will is unprovable is an excuse for all of my actions. I embrace my actions and accept their consequences. Criminals should be punished for what they do. Good should be rewarded. We just can't prove that the criminals or the judges freely choose whatever course of action they embark upon.