If the demand for meat decreases, there doesn’t necessarily have to be a decrease in price to reach equilibrium. There can be a decrease in production. Granted, if the meat industry can increase demand by lowering prices to maintain or increase their bottom line they will.
EDIT: Is this right? I just glanced at a econ paper for the first time in maybe ever. Admittedly I dont know much here. Maybe price must decrease. But production must too then. Right?

Ultimately whether or not this happens does not rest with meat industry or some magical economic principle. It rests with us, the consumers. Look what’s going on with health foods in the USA as awareness spreads. Increases in demand have driven an increase in production. Soon, if it hasn’t already happened, prices will decrease. Same goes for meat alternatives. The more the demand for meat alternatives increases, the more it increases in production and variety and decreases in price. I guess my point is it’s not going to happen by itself.


You are an incredibly intelligent human being. The things you do with math are incredibly impressive. I love your passion and your vision for the future.

I think you are overlooking something important here though. That is why you seem to value rationalism/intelligence. I don’t want to put words in your mouth but it seems that you value our complexity of consciousness not only for our richness of experience but also for our ability to improve upon our experience- to make our basic experience more enjoyable through the elimination of suffering and through increasing our options. In other words, intelligence is not valued in and of itself. Intelligence is a means to improve something of value- experience.

Two thought experiments for you.

1)There exists an incredibly intelligent alien race. They come from a higher euryphysical plane of existence where our notion of intelligence is laughable at best. They can solve our most difficult problems in the blink of an eye.
Would you be ok with them killing humans?
If no, why not?
If yes, why is that any different than a human killing another human?

2)There exists an alien race. This alien race does not have the type of intelligence you and are are familiar with but they have other abilities beyond ours. They don’t think like we do and they feel differently. They pick up on emotions much more readily and have what appears to be extraordinary senses.
Would you be ok with humans killing them?
If no, why not?
If yes, why is that different than a human killing another human?

lmao what a clearly dishonest take. You're including the time it takes to drive to the store and buy things and come back? Nobody does that, my dude. You can make a filling and very tasty pasta salad in like 15-20 minutes flat unless you're incompetent.

The pasta salad should contain bacon*. Add some cooking time. Still - Twenty-five minutes max.

*Or Brain Pâté. Alternatively, some foie gras would add sumptuous flavor.

Could easily fry the bacon while the pasta is cooking and it wouldn't add any additional time.

i don't personally want to be eaten by a superior being and would fight to survive. but i think it's a very reasonable thing for a hungry, superior being to do if it chooses. and very likely an ethical choice.

That is all fine and good. I can cook rice and pasta and the sauce they take in 20 min together in different pots and pans etc and make a basic salad at the same time. I can make a salad in 5 min wtf. Open the Caesar salad mix and add olive oil vinegar and salt and oregano. Done in 3min.


But i was talking about the super salad i make that has many many ingredients which i can use for 3-4 days gradually adding only the dressings later to not start spoiling it.

You do not need to count the time you drive to the shop. You go there anyway for all kinds of things. But you need to count the time you take at the store to select the products that relate to the salad. That adds 5-10 mine easily as they are not all at the same place and sometimes you have to search for something that is not obviously where it was before etc.

Let me ask. Dont you need time to wash spinach and throw away old leaves that started to go bad? Dont you need time to wash Kale? Dont you need time to wash and cut tomatoes in small pieces? How about cucumbers. Peel and cut in small pieces. How about green peppers. You need to wash and clean seeds and cut in pieces too. Then you need to select from 2-3different packages a little from everything to create a great variety and you need to add all the dressings if you create them one by one and not in a single bottle or whatever you pour in. You need to mix this very well after putting oil and vinegar etc. All this take time damn it. You do not chop something in 1 min. Then you need to put back to refrigerator all these things you took out etc.

See now why AI robot for stupid repetitive kitchen is a best seller when they create it?

Thanks for your kind words and your post contributions and starting the thread.

Economics is complex sometimes and depends on a lot of things but the main idea is that if you have infrastructure in place you can lower prices to keep demand up plus progress overall will keep making things more efficient and cut prices that way making them more affordable to hundreds of millions of new consumers worldwide in new economies. So i think we need to move faster to the progress direction and not worry too much about having a good time while going there because it may make it happen faster than if we take a conservative cut back approach. We wont solve the energy problems with cutting down either. We need to think big permanent solutions.

My idea is that its not as nutritious to ignore meat products and meat as having a full diet with emphasis on the good plant/fruit items. I think its best and more reasonable to start a campaign to promote low usage of meat not elimination of it (plus improvement of the conditions of the animals) because that way all are happy they still consume it but not in big quantities and transition to other choices more gradually and effectively.

On a strict vegan or vegetarian diet one must be very careful to not miss certain things. My problem is the radical nature of not ever even 1% of the time missing something that could be animal product in origin. This is obsessive rejection really that is strange and somewhat against a free thinking spirit. It is like a kind of extremism in a way. A symbolic purist position. A less aggressive selection restriction could still have the same main effects.

The best diet is probably a Mediterranean diet that is not putting emphasis on meat but includes it occasionally in moderation. Its problem is time needed though to do it right.

On the thought experiments;

1) The higher intelligence being that is more advanced doesn't need to eat us or kill us any more than we will be able to do eventually by synthesizing breast meat or the like with cells muscle growth methods outside a real animal. They have the technology and they win nothing from us that they cant have without conflict.

Also the comparative thing about alien higher intelligence is not properly presented by people like NdG Tyson. An alien civilization that has vastly higher intelligence will still be able to recognize and respect how remarkable it is that we study the universe and math and create technology (it is their past after all) . None of these appears in other animals. We do not eat elephants and dolphins or whales today for example among the smart species typically. Not the more educated part of the world (although some aholes from that part still go to hunt them for who the f knows what reason).

What do we have in common in terms of the study of nature with a chicken? A chicken has my sympathy as a being and i would never mistreat it and try to become friends even and care for it. I still think that after it has lived long enough if it never wakes up its not a major loss. I prefer if it lived but we breed hundreds of millions of them right now. They wouldn't have existed otherwise. In wild nature they would live a more difficult life with less expectations than the one in a good farm. We do not have many good farms. That is a problem that must be changed. I still do not see a major loss if there is no suffering and after a life of joy that would not have existed otherwise it expires. It got a great life for it of available food every day.

2) Not ok to kill aliens unless they present a threat of some type to a greater thing. We do not have that in the animals we consume. They have some skills we dont but they do nothing remarkable with them. Plus we have settled to only a few animals we consume and we can restrict it even more efficiency with better design.

Again what is lost when a chicken doesn't live another day if it has lived a good life as a trade. It just reacts to instincts and lives to eat every day. There is no ongoing project lost as is with a higher animal.