Quote:
Originally Posted by masque de Z
Here is the problem really. Vegans think they change the world by promoting a better environment and saving animals that they dont have to die to be consumed by them. Wrong! As long as other people exist that are poor and can consume meat now that they have more money and population grows the prices will drop if consumption drops from vegans and the other people will increase meat consumption and nothing will change as it all becomes more efficient and uses even more animals.
Instead what one must do is eat everything and focus as much as possible in better nutrition that is mostly vegetarian and fruits and the better types of animal products and fish and high quality meat eaten in small quantities and cooked better regularly. At the same time promote better farming and treatment of animals through legislation and new companies.
Forget about wasting time to be a 99.99% purist and either be 99% or instead eat mostly vegetarian but dont have problem if you eat a few animal products here and there either , enjoy life and work towards scientific society so that one day animals will live happier and people wont have to even kill them or mass produce them to be killed eventually but let them die properly.
However it's moronic to think meat is unethical in all cases because animals die, some when they die are in perfect condition and their products are also ok in most cases or can be arranged to be ok by better organizing their treatment so that the milk or eggs are just fine products and not depriving anyone from anything really.
So enjoy life and eat any food group in balance and use your freedom and time saved when you consume high energy foods that take less time to prepare to design the better world and recognize that the planet will be saved the right way with massive breakthroughs and better leadership/organization not by thinking small that we can actually make a difference when so many other billions of people will happily take our place in this futile game of pseudo ethics.
I see vegans in youtube videos that think they have a difficult job finding proper food etc. I know a ton of greek dishes that are vegan approved that i can cook that will make me super happy to consume eternally and use only milk and eggs and cheese with them as bonus not really because its super needed ( because i am not stupid to think there is anything unethical about most non meat animal products as long as i also work to improve farming and animal treatment methods).
The problem is again time time and time! It takes a lot of time to make vegetarian and vegan food interesting and not a daily chore to eat but a joy.
I ask damn it to give me recipes that are fast and tasty and i get nothing nothing nothing but generic microwaving things references without any description in detail. The dishes i have linked here are all super tasty but they take time damn it. That is a massive problem. And i am not looking for restaurant vegan food or processed vegan food.
Now you want to change the world? Screw the religious avoidance of all micro weight ingredients in food you suspect is not 100% vegan that makes one a total zealot of unreasonable obsession and instead work to create AI that can cook for you healthy amazing value meals as soon as possible. Why not. Why is cooking so difficult to program in a robot? That is the solution and if i have to eat some meat and whatever to get to it i will damn right do so and be super ethical about it because i build the only future that will make a difference for good that way so my (and your) enjoyment while working for it is the most ethical choice that will get us there.
If one eats 70 gr of meat every day they consume over a year 25 kgr that is not even a big animal or possibly only a few chickens and 1/10 of a pig or 1/30th of a cow or 5-10 fishes. Wow what a crime!
Seems to me the ideal strategy is to try to minimize meat consumption to only the best of choices available and with the best cooking methods and try to enhance natural foods focusing on fruit and vegetables and starches and use animal products in moderation as enhancers of the core plant based diet. Move from 70 to 50 or 40gr per day.
So why would one be forced to religiously avoid the tiniest consumption of animal products? There is nothing essential gained in ethics or value by going to the 100% if you are already at 90-95%. It is only a tiny extra step that is not worthy of the burden in my opinion. I applaud someone that can find balance in only plant food and feel happy for their choice but i also find it unreasonable to be obsessed with the 100% and i think they should also research if their diet now covers all that they need given that a lot of vitamin D comes from milk usually and plant protein is not exactly complete alone or requires serious balancing of many different sources. And then there is the issue of time that is not trivial. Convenience if your work is ethical 95% of the day for the greater good of the planet may be the reason its 95% and not 50%. One must be happy with their food.
If the demand for meat decreases, there doesn’t necessarily have to be a decrease in price to reach equilibrium. There can be a decrease in production. Granted, if the meat industry can increase demand by lowering prices to maintain or increase their bottom line they will.
EDIT: Is this right? I just glanced at a econ paper for the first time in maybe ever. Admittedly I dont know much here. Maybe price must decrease. But production must too then. Right?
Ultimately whether or not this happens does not rest with meat industry or some magical economic principle. It rests with us, the consumers. Look what’s going on with health foods in the USA as awareness spreads. Increases in demand have driven an increase in production. Soon, if it hasn’t already happened, prices will decrease. Same goes for meat alternatives. The more the demand for meat alternatives increases, the more it increases in production and variety and decreases in price. I guess my point is it’s not going to happen by itself.
You are an incredibly intelligent human being. The things you do with math are incredibly impressive. I love your passion and your vision for the future.
I think you are overlooking something important here though. That is why you seem to value rationalism/intelligence. I don’t want to put words in your mouth but it seems that you value our complexity of consciousness not only for our richness of experience but also for our ability to improve upon our experience- to make our basic experience more enjoyable through the elimination of suffering and through increasing our options. In other words, intelligence is not valued in and of itself. Intelligence is a means to improve something of value- experience.
Two thought experiments for you.
1)There exists an incredibly intelligent alien race. They come from a higher euryphysical plane of existence where our notion of intelligence is laughable at best. They can solve our most difficult problems in the blink of an eye.
Would you be ok with them killing humans?
If no, why not?
If yes, why is that any different than a human killing another human?
2)There exists an alien race. This alien race does not have the type of intelligence you and are are familiar with but they have other abilities beyond ours. They don’t
think like we do and they
feel differently. They pick up on emotions much more readily and have what appears to be extraordinary senses.
Would you be ok with humans killing them?
If no, why not?
If yes, why is that different than a human killing another human?
Last edited by citamgine; 03-24-2018 at 07:01 AM.
Reason: economics