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Originally Posted by Jibninjas
How is "thinking" in this context by the human any different than a tornado that reacts to various outside wind currents? Tornado's change their path in the same manner that you are claiming a human changes it's mind.
Correct. It's the same in the sense you're talking about, which is the only sense that really matters in this discussion. I only meant it is different in that it is a lot more complex in humans because humans have brains.
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And please explain what you mean when you say "aren't necessarily deterministic"? I don't quite understand how something does not have free will and is also not controlled deterministically.
Because deterministic means there's no room for randomness. So in a deterministic universe, if I were to go back in time to 9:00 this morning I would be absolutely certain to order a large cup of coffee just like I did in fact have. But in a non-deterministic universe, at that same point there could be a non-zero chance that I order a medium cup of coffee because of quantum randomness. In neither example did I possess free will.
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Wait, so you agree that a human is "evil" in the same way that a tornado is "evil"?
With respect to actions and the consequences of those actions, yes. But humans are conscious and therefore can experience a wide range of happiness and suffering, where as tornadoes aren't and can't.
Basically everything neuroscience tells us about the mind and physics tells us about what the universe is made up of points to there being no ghost in the machine. And if not for a ghost in the machine, there's just such a small likelihood free will can exist (whatever that would even mean).