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Originally Posted by Aaron W.
Yeah... this is definitely where we're hung up. Instead of "coin-flipping" we can just take "quantum spin" which is about as purely random as anything we can possibly conceive of given our current understanding of the universe.
Are you still going to assert that free will requires "randomness" in this sense?
Free will requires some "it" that is purely random. Not that total randomness of everything is required, but whatever "it" that allows freedom would must not be caused at all. "It" would need to be purely random.*
"It" being whatever allows previous states to not constrain the current action.
"It" cannot be restrained in any way other than it could be dichotomous (see * below), or it loses all meaning.
I think this causes some problems for responsibility, and maybe everything else that free will. "I did it because of a random quantum event" is not satisfying. Adding some other "it" in place of quantum event is equally troubling, I think.
This puts your position in equality to mine in that the implications of both kind of suck.
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The position that compatibilism is false equates the two. That is, if you can perfectly predict every event (ie, capable of determining the outcome of any situation given complete information about the state of the universe), then the outcome is determined (ie, it's the only thing that can possibly happen). The God conversation is an example of this. If God perfectly knows all of our decisions, then the claim is that this is determinism.
We agree here.
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(changing my statement to make it more accurate: determined (being fully caused by a previous state)
This is to prevent confusion. There can be necessary conditions for the effect (I can't choose a bagel unless I have a bagel) but they may not be sufficient conditions to be the cause (the existence of a bagel in the pantry does not force me to choose it).
I want to be very careful and explicit with "cause and effect" vs. "determinism." They are similar-sounding on the surface, but represent very different concepts.
In other words, you are saying:
"If free will exists, cause and effect are guidelines, not law," correct? It requires some uncaused causes.
* It could be dichotomously random or a range. I think that dichotomous would work as long as it is completely free from cause, so maybe that doesn't matter.