durkadurka, you only believe in free will because....(LC)
You seem to be saying that this is untrue, and that therefore my example is incoherent. But I would say that if the above is true, then a number is certainly capable of all the processes of the human brain. (For example, all the information in data file described above being encoded as a series of digits - the integer representing that series of digits - given that the digits and not the encoding system contains the information defining the processes - is capable of all of the processes of the data file, which is capable of all of the processes of the brain.)
That is, these are not empty containers (ie, not vacuously true statements).
Are you talking about the analytic/synthetic distinction here?
Edit: I don't even think this can be properly interpreted as "If A then B, but A is false." It would have to be phrased "If n is an even number larger than two, then it is not prime." But we would never know a priori the truth value of "n is an even number larger than two" since n can take values that would make it true, and values that would make it false.
Easy to plug the gap by defining "range" as "an enumerated set." That works for humans and computers, good enough for me.
Big Blue enumerated the set of its legal moves, and picked one. Ergo it picked one move from a range.
Seriously, I think claiming that chess computers don't pick from a range of legal chess moves is a bit silly and going even further than your fellow libertarians would want to go, but it's certainly not something that would ever apply given any definition of "range" I use on any kind of regular basis (possibly given any definition I've ever used outside of "domain and range" in math class).
That was the only reason you gave for not using the word. If the only reason you refuse to use a word in a particular way is because you want to "reserve" use of the word for cases that don't fit the compatibilist definition of the word, then you're doing argument by equivocation.
That's how choosers are different from rocks: rocks lack an internal decision algorithm.
Which isn't to criticize, I think your "gated marble" analogy is perfect. I mean it, not being sarcastic - it solves all the problems of the silly domino analogy by including all the elements necessary for choice (and only those elements).
You were given a clear case in which compatibilists would say that there is a choice, and yet you refuse to allow that it's a choice because you want to reserve the term for a particular use.
In fact, the only reason you have given for trying to "disallow" the compatibilist use of the term is that you'd "like to reserve" that term.
In fact, the only reason you have given for trying to "disallow" the compatibilist use of the term is that you'd "like to reserve" that term.
Where did you get this (the latter statement) from?
Yes, under exactly the same circumstances the same chooser will act the same way. But another chooser could act differently, because his internal decision algorithm is different.
Hence we can say that there are different options and as the action is decided by an algorithm that is special to each different chooser we can asign responsability.
That's how choosers are different from rocks: rocks lack an internal decision algorithm.
That's how choosers are different from rocks: rocks lack an internal decision algorithm.
That was the only reason you gave for not using the word. If the only reason you refuse to use a word in a particular way is because you want to "reserve" use of the word for cases that don't fit the compatibilist definition of the word, then you're doing argument by equivocation.
You confused effect for cause. Nihan.
Also, my arguments for the implications of the concept of a 'range' are meant to be a conceptual analysis. I'm not DEFINING range as having properties x,y,z before the analysis. The content that I've ended up with comes AFTER the analysis of the concept of a 'range'. I think that that concept of a 'range' doesn't exist in a deterministic system and I've given arguments for it.
Look, you may disagree with my arguments, but you're still stuck on the very methodology itself.
He is committed to this position...I think. If not, I don't see any non-arbitrary way of describing the situation in a deterministic system.
The A would be "a process does not metaphysically depend on any particular physicality or 'nature of reality,' but rather on the specific arrangement of information (for example, a turing machine composed of mooing cows that can successfully simulate the workings of a human brain, and a computer data file that contains the memory representations of the simulated brain, have all of the same processes and are capable of all the same functions as the brain itself)."
You seem to be saying that this is untrue, and that therefore my example is incoherent. But I would say that if the above is true, then a number is certainly capable of all the processes of the human brain. (For example, all the information in data file described above being encoded as a series of digits - the integer representing that series of digits - given that the digits and not the encoding system contains the information defining the processes - is capable of all of the processes of the data file, which is capable of all of the processes of the brain.)
You seem to be saying that this is untrue, and that therefore my example is incoherent. But I would say that if the above is true, then a number is certainly capable of all the processes of the human brain. (For example, all the information in data file described above being encoded as a series of digits - the integer representing that series of digits - given that the digits and not the encoding system contains the information defining the processes - is capable of all of the processes of the data file, which is capable of all of the processes of the brain.)
How do you respond to the view that a process is just a particular arrangement of information?
Why do you think an n-tuple can't be a systematic series of actions directed to some end?
"If a number has more than two divisors, then it is not prime" would itself be the A in this case. Though you would be disagreeing with a definition rather than an actual proposition here.
But if the apple tree is not "choosing" then he's going to have to clarify his position.
That is, how we distinguish between something that is "a systematic series of actions directed to some end" and something that is not "a systematic series of actions directed to some end" is by examining the arrangement of the information.
So the question of whether an n-tuple can be a process is a question of whether the particular arrangement of information can be preserved when encoding that information into an n-tuple.
That reasoning coming AFTER the other argument...it's the effect of that cause.
You confused effect for cause. Nihan.
Also, my arguments for the implications of the concept of a 'range' are meant to be a conceptual analysis. I'm not DEFINING range as having properties x,y,z before the analysis. The content that I've ended up with comes AFTER the analysis of the concept of a 'range'. I think that that concept of a 'range' doesn't exist in a deterministic system and I've given arguments for it.
You confused effect for cause. Nihan.
Also, my arguments for the implications of the concept of a 'range' are meant to be a conceptual analysis. I'm not DEFINING range as having properties x,y,z before the analysis. The content that I've ended up with comes AFTER the analysis of the concept of a 'range'. I think that that concept of a 'range' doesn't exist in a deterministic system and I've given arguments for it.
Look, you may disagree with my arguments, but you're still stuck on the very methodology itself.
You may be right that determinism and choice are incompatible within your conceptual system, but I see no indication that there exists any overlap between your conceptual system and, say, that of Hume.
Actually, I have presented lots of reasons. Whether you think they're good reasons or not is up to you and your epistemic virtues...but you're actually still hung up on the methodology itself and hung up on even understanding that I HAVE given reasons and arguments.
You apparently can't separate with your disagreement of the conclusion with recognizing that there IS a conclusion and arguments supporting it.
You apparently can't separate with your disagreement of the conclusion with recognizing that there IS a conclusion and arguments supporting it.
Actually, I have presented lots of reasons. Whether you think they're good reasons or not is up to you and your epistemic virtues...but you're actually still hung up on the methodology itself and hung up on even understanding that I HAVE given reasons and arguments.
You apparently can't separate with your disagreement of the conclusion with recognizing that there IS a conclusion and arguments supporting it.
You apparently can't separate with your disagreement of the conclusion with recognizing that there IS a conclusion and arguments supporting it.
That is, how we distinguish between something that is "a systematic series of actions directed to some end" and something that is not "a systematic series of actions directed to some end" is by examining the arrangement of the information.
So the question of whether an n-tuple can be a process is a question of whether the particular arrangement of information can be preserved when encoding that information into an n-tuple.
So the question of whether an n-tuple can be a process is a question of whether the particular arrangement of information can be preserved when encoding that information into an n-tuple.
I started with your definition of choice.
I then analyzed what it really means to 'select from a range of options.'
I argued that something is only a range when one could select either disjunct from the 'range' in the actual world.
Which premises do you reject and why?
If I set up 10 dominoes in a row. The 6th will fall a certain way when I start the chain with the 1st. Now, counterfactually, had they been set up in a different configuration, then the 6th domino 'could have done otherwise' in falling a different way. But, things are the way that they are: this is the actual world. In what sense is the counterfactual ability to 'do otherwise' sufficient for 'choice' qua selecting from a range of options?
Let's say that I can either go make a cup of coffee or tea right now (I'm at the office working on a lecture). Now, in a deterministic system, which option will be performed is already decided (though perhaps not to my consciousness, but I don't think that this is important). It's decided in the sense that the present states and microstates of the universe and the laws of nature determine only one outcome. Let's say that I will make another cup of tea.
Now, if I was put back into the same circumstances an infinite number of times, in a deterministic system, I would never have done otherwise. Given the same initial conditions and the laws of nature, I would always have made the same 'choice.' (Choice used loosely here.)
So, it was never possible in the actual world for me to make coffee given the states and microstates of the universe and the laws of nature (given a deterministic system).
Question 1: how is it that I actually had a 'range' of options here given that I could never, in the actual world, 'choose' the coffee?
Now, it's almost trivial to say that 'had things been different, then things could have been different.' This is what the counterfactual interpretation of compatibilism amounts to: had things been different, then I could have done otherwise. Well sure, if I was born with 4 arms I probably could do a lot of things that I didn't do because I only had 2 arms. This is not an informative theory (or characterization of the theory).
Question 2: how is that the ability to counterfactually could have done otherwise, given that things were different, is sufficient for 'choice' in the actual world?
I'm saying it's not vacuous.
Uh, it's a fairly common belief, actually. I referenced you to a book on it.
And yes, I can define the terms to some extent, given that you're claiming a flaw in my position.
In other words, you can twist the words and meanings as much as you want, but nobody else can. This literally makes ZERO sense.
And yes, I can define the terms to some extent, given that you're claiming a flaw in my position.
FWIW, I went w/ tea
I argued that something is only a range when one could select either disjunct from the 'range' in the actual world.
Which premises do you reject and why?
If I set up 10 dominoes in a row. The 6th will fall a certain way when I start the chain with the 1st. Now, counterfactually, had they been set up in a different configuration, then the 6th domino 'could have done otherwise' in falling a different way. But, things are the way that they are: this is the actual world. In what sense is the counterfactual ability to 'do otherwise' sufficient for 'choice' qua selecting from a range of options?
If I set up 10 dominoes in a row. The 6th will fall a certain way when I start the chain with the 1st. Now, counterfactually, had they been set up in a different configuration, then the 6th domino 'could have done otherwise' in falling a different way. But, things are the way that they are: this is the actual world. In what sense is the counterfactual ability to 'do otherwise' sufficient for 'choice' qua selecting from a range of options?
Let's say that I can either go make a cup of coffee or tea right now (I'm at the office working on a lecture). Now, in a deterministic system, which option will be performed is already decided (though perhaps not to my consciousness, but I don't think that this is important). It's decided in the sense that the present states and microstates of the universe and the laws of nature determine only one outcome. Let's say that I will make another cup of tea.
Now, if I was put back into the same circumstances an infinite number of times, in a deterministic system, I would never have done otherwise. Given the same initial conditions and the laws of nature, I would always have made the same 'choice.' (Choice used loosely here.)
Now, if I was put back into the same circumstances an infinite number of times, in a deterministic system, I would never have done otherwise. Given the same initial conditions and the laws of nature, I would always have made the same 'choice.' (Choice used loosely here.)
So, it was never possible in the actual world for me to make coffee given the states and microstates of the universe and the laws of nature (given a deterministic system).
Question 1: how is it that I actually had a 'range' of options here given that I could never, in the actual world, 'choose' the coffee?
Now, it's almost trivial to say that 'had things been different, then things could have been different.' This is what the counterfactual interpretation of compatibilism amounts to: had things been different, then I could have done otherwise. Well sure, if I was born with 4 arms I probably could do a lot of things that I didn't do because I only had 2 arms. This is not an informative theory (or characterization of the theory).
It doesn't inform the concept of choice. Not supposed to.
Question 2: how is that the ability to counterfactually could have done otherwise, given that things were different, is sufficient for 'choice' in the actual world?
You have yet to engage my actual arguments for the analysis of 'range' and 'options' and 'choice.' You merely dig your heels in and refuse to engage in the arguments.
"That's not my definition" you cry! We're aware of that.
"You just define it in your own way" you cry! But I didn't. I took your definition and provided a conceptual analysis of the terms in your definition.
Now you say that 'could have done otherwise' isn't necessary for choice but you explicitly offered a counterfactual analysis of 'possible' in order to ground your definition of choice qua selecting from a range of options. You say that one could not 'select' from a range of options in a determinstic system in the actual world, but one could in other nearby possible worlds, counterfactually speaking. But then you say that this is not necessary for choice or responsibility.
You've ceased to make sense.
"That's not my definition" you cry! We're aware of that.
"You just define it in your own way" you cry! But I didn't. I took your definition and provided a conceptual analysis of the terms in your definition.
Now you say that 'could have done otherwise' isn't necessary for choice but you explicitly offered a counterfactual analysis of 'possible' in order to ground your definition of choice qua selecting from a range of options. You say that one could not 'select' from a range of options in a determinstic system in the actual world, but one could in other nearby possible worlds, counterfactually speaking. But then you say that this is not necessary for choice or responsibility.
You've ceased to make sense.
Let's go back a bit and make sure you really understand what you're saying:
There is no sense in which an rational number in the range of f exhibits any "selection" through a "cognitive" process.
<END CONVERSATION 1>
<BEGIN CONVERSATION 2>
WHAT? That has nothing to do with ANYTHING AT ALL!
Uh, it's a fairly common belief, actually. I referenced you to a book on it.
This seems to be his summary statement.
How you get from that statement to "an n-tuple is a process" is beyond comprehension.
And by "some extent" you really mean "as often as I want and as much as I want because I'm too stubborn to simply admit I made a mistake." (Edit: or worse, "... to admit that I don't actually know what I'm talking about.")
Originally Posted by you
Selection from a range of options through a cognitive mechanism.
Originally Posted by me
It's not there in the vectors.
Originally Posted by you
How do you figure?
Originally Posted by me
How do *YOU* figure? Anything that I'm about to say involving "selection" and "cognitive mechanism" will be subject to your redefinition upon discovering that it doesn't make sense with the usual concepts of the word.
Originally Posted by you
Use the dictionary, then. Just don't add anything the dictionary itself doesn't mention, and keep in mind that if the dictionary says "x, y, or z" that means that any of the three do the job.
Originally Posted by me
cognitive
–adjective
1. of or pertaining to cognition.
2. of or pertaining to the mental processes of perception, memory, judgment, and reasoning, as contrasted with emotional and volitional processes.
cognition
1. the act or process of knowing; perception.
2. the product of such a process; something thus known, perceived, etc.
3. knowledge
selection
1. an act or instance of selecting or the state of being selected; choice.
2. a thing or a number of things selected.
3. an aggregate of things displayed for choice, purchase, use, etc.; a group from which a choice may be made: The store had a wide selection of bracelets.
4. Biology . any natural or artificial process that results in differential reproduction among the members of a population so that the inheritable traits of only certain individuals are passed on, or are passed on in greater proportion, to succeeding generations. Compare natural selection, sexual selection, kin selection, artificial selection.
5. Linguistics .
a. the choice of one form instead of another in a position where either can occur, as of ask instead of tell or with in the phrase ask me.
b. the choice of one semantic or syntactic class of words in a construction, to the exclusion of others that do not occur there, as the choice of an animate object for the verb surprise.
–adjective
1. of or pertaining to cognition.
2. of or pertaining to the mental processes of perception, memory, judgment, and reasoning, as contrasted with emotional and volitional processes.
cognition
1. the act or process of knowing; perception.
2. the product of such a process; something thus known, perceived, etc.
3. knowledge
selection
1. an act or instance of selecting or the state of being selected; choice.
2. a thing or a number of things selected.
3. an aggregate of things displayed for choice, purchase, use, etc.; a group from which a choice may be made: The store had a wide selection of bracelets.
4. Biology . any natural or artificial process that results in differential reproduction among the members of a population so that the inheritable traits of only certain individuals are passed on, or are passed on in greater proportion, to succeeding generations. Compare natural selection, sexual selection, kin selection, artificial selection.
5. Linguistics .
a. the choice of one form instead of another in a position where either can occur, as of ask instead of tell or with in the phrase ask me.
b. the choice of one semantic or syntactic class of words in a construction, to the exclusion of others that do not occur there, as the choice of an animate object for the verb surprise.
Originally Posted by you
You think you can disprove the emergence of cognitive processes?
Originally Posted by me
In the context of n-dimensional vectors with a finite domain that is a subset of a Cartesian product of the rational numbers?
Proof: An n-tuple is a finite list of numbers. A finite list of numbers does not express "selection" through a "cognitive" mechanism. QED
Proof: An n-tuple is a finite list of numbers. A finite list of numbers does not express "selection" through a "cognitive" mechanism. QED
<BEGIN CONVERSATION 2>
Originally Posted by you
How do you respond to the view that a process is just a particular arrangement of information?
Originally Posted by me
I respond by pointing out that a process is not a particular arrangement of information BY DEFINITION.
1) A process is one of the following:
2) Therefore, a process in not a particular arrangement of information.
1) A process is one of the following:
process (noun)
1. a systematic series of actions directed to some end: to devise a process for homogenizing milk.
2. a continuous action, operation, or series of changes taking place in a definite manner: the process of decay.
3. Law .
a. the summons, mandate, or writ by which a defendant or thing is brought before court for litigation.
b. the whole course of the proceedings in an action at law.
4. Photography . photomechanical or photoengraving methods collectively.
5. Biology, Anatomy . a natural outgrowth, projection, or appendage: a process of a bone.
6. the action of going forward or on.
7. the condition of being carried on.
8. course or lapse, as of time.
9. conk4 ( defs. 1, 2 ) .
1. a systematic series of actions directed to some end: to devise a process for homogenizing milk.
2. a continuous action, operation, or series of changes taking place in a definite manner: the process of decay.
3. Law .
a. the summons, mandate, or writ by which a defendant or thing is brought before court for litigation.
b. the whole course of the proceedings in an action at law.
4. Photography . photomechanical or photoengraving methods collectively.
5. Biology, Anatomy . a natural outgrowth, projection, or appendage: a process of a bone.
6. the action of going forward or on.
7. the condition of being carried on.
8. course or lapse, as of time.
9. conk4 ( defs. 1, 2 ) .
Originally Posted by you
What I'm using as a premise is that it is the arrangement of information that defines a process.
Originally Posted by me
Ummmm... assuming your conclusion?
Originally Posted by you
I'm saying it's not vacuous.
In other words, you can twist the words and meanings as much as you want, but nobody else can. This literally makes ZERO sense.
Originally Posted by book
Everything in our reality is made up of information
And yes, I can define the terms to some extent, given that you're claiming a flaw in my position.
Where does this go beyond your comprehension?
"That's not my definition" you cry! We're aware of that.
"You just define it in your own way" you cry! But I didn't. I took your definition and provided a conceptual analysis of the terms in your definition.
"You just define it in your own way" you cry! But I didn't. I took your definition and provided a conceptual analysis of the terms in your definition.
If you mean something completely different when you say "range of options" than I do, then we aren't using the same terms.
Now you say that 'could have done otherwise' isn't necessary for choice but you explicitly offered a counterfactual analysis of 'possible' in order to ground your definition of choice qua selecting from a range of options. You say that one could not 'select' from a range of options in a determinstic system in the actual world, but one could in other nearby possible worlds, counterfactually speaking.
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