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Becoming Human: A Theory of Ontogeny Becoming Human: A Theory of Ontogeny

02-27-2019 , 11:07 AM
Does this book touch upon autistic masking at all? Understanding, err, um... typical behaviors is related to understanding what behaviors relate with the mask. Which is one reason why I might get this book, even if it doesn’t address it directly, it seems like it may contribute indirectly.
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02-27-2019 , 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by spanktehbadwookie
Does this book touch upon autistic masking at all?
No, I don't think so. I had to google it.
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03-02-2019 , 02:41 PM
Thanks. It is variously interesting to me. One may suppose autistic masking is relevant to normative socialization. An open query. Frontier work it appears.
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03-06-2019 , 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by well named
No, I don't think so. I had to google it.
Does it touch on how to properly construct a sandwich? Since this is deeply important to me, I think the book is lacking in scope if it does not.

Nice review, btw.
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03-06-2019 , 02:01 PM
Saw this today, related to the idea that concepts of fairness arise particularly in collaborative contexts: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-019-0530-9
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03-29-2019 , 04:24 PM
What’s Wrong with Moral Foundations Theory, and How to get Moral Psychology Right

I like the attempt to revise MFT by using less ad-hoc categories derived from empirical research. The gist seems to start from similar ideas as this book.
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03-29-2019 , 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by well named
What’s Wrong with Moral Foundations Theory, and How to get Moral Psychology Right

I like the attempt to revise MFT by using less ad-hoc categories derived from empirical research. The gist seems to start from similar ideas as this book.
I love the empirically driven (factor analysis) vs theoretically driven debates. Both camps are extremely good at talking past each other.
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03-29-2019 , 04:45 PM
Hah. Probably true. My usual attitude to this sort of thing is por que no los dos?
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03-29-2019 , 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by well named
Hah. Probably true. My usual attitude to this sort of thing is por que no los dos?
Well, if something is true, it should show up under a factor analysis. So, agree.
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03-30-2019 , 09:09 AM
But how relevant is each factor? So for example "both" doesn't mean equally much of both.
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03-30-2019 , 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by plaaynde
But how relevant is each factor? So for example "both" doesn't mean equally much of both.
Not really the standard way of thinking about factors in factor analysis. It is just a statistical way of determining which things go together. So, peanut butter and chocolate would go into the factor "foods" and artichokes and coal would go into the factor "minerals."
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03-30-2019 , 12:47 PM
But other factors than those in the factor analysis? Theoretical vs empirical factors. A factor can mean different things.
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03-31-2019 , 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by plaaynde
But other factors than those in the factor analysis? Theoretical vs empirical factors. A factor can mean different things.
The theoretical factors should show up on a factor analysis if the factors in the theory have a relationship to reality. Some people believe that having a relationship to reality is an important thing for a theory.
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03-31-2019 , 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by well named
I think the most central claim of the book is that prosociality is the most distinctively human trait, in comparison to other primates. I'd guess it's probably true that the impression the book gives is a little too "prosocial" (obviously people are also selfish and individually motivated) but it still seems a useful counterpoint to the tendency I think some people have of interpreting evolutionary psychology purely through the lens of "survival of the fittest" and individual competition.
Couldn't you just argue that pro sociality itself evolved because it increased fitness and was selected for?
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03-31-2019 , 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by well named
One of the things that excited me about this book is its implications for moral philosophy. I'm sure to some extent it's just a reflection of my own ignorance, or lack of familiarity with more modern work in ethics and meta-ethics, but I've always struggled with meta-ethics in particular because I feel like so many of the classic arguments hinge on metaphysical intuitions that don't fit very well with the rest of my worldview, i.e. in debates about moral realism, or what could constitute an objectively true normative claim.

In discussions I've seen here and in RGT, I think the dichotomy is often presented as the difference between moral truths existing entire independently of human existence (either from the mind of God, or some platonic moral realm, or in some other metaphysically irreducible way) or else as mere opinion, error theory, non-cognitivism, or in some other sense lacking the possibility of having validity associated with some objective or inter-subjective basis.

Sometimes people (including me!) try to outline the idea of moral realism that has no metaphysical basis outside of "human nature" in some form, sociological principles, evolutionary psychology, or the like, but they tend to be pretty hand-wavy. It's seemed clear to me for a long time that morality as actually practiced is culturally grounded and any description of morality would have to take that into account, but that perspective also seems a bit uncomfortably close to pure moral relativism, which isn't particularly excited.

So part of what is intriguing about the book is that in describing the ontogenetic pathways of human development around normativity, and in capturing the fact that some basic motivations and tendencies (e.g. towards fairness in collaborative tasks) are apparently universal, Tomasello is laying some ground-work for developing a more substantive moral theory where the objective validity of some moral claims could be grounded in legitimate scientific claims about human nature, and in particular the fact that human nature is thoroughly social, so that morality is intrinsically a social phenomena. This doesn't remove uncomfortable questions about relativism, but it does at least ground them a little more satisfactorily, perhaps?

The book also reminded me of this essay on moral progress by Nagel, from last year, in particular Nagel's framing of moral realism around reason giving:



Nagel's version of moral realism in this essay is also culturally relative and seems highly compatible with Tomasello's ontogeny. I think the book helps a great deal by suggesting ways in which the kinds of reasons Nagel mentions can be constrained by more or less universal aspects of human existence, e.g. prosocial motivations and expectations about fairness. The theoretical framework and experimental research highlighted in the book also go a long way towards explaining why reasons are central to morality in the first place, i.e. as a reflection of core human behavior related to collective intentionality. Tomasello also mentions Rawls' work in political philosophy in the chapter discussing fairness, and I think the book complements that kind of political philosophy in much the same way.

I also think that in some interesting way this approach to morality is an interesting challenge to the idea of the "is/ought" fallacy, but I haven't given this nearly enough thought.
I kinda agree this is more or less true, but trying to live a life according to this philosophy sounds like a bad idea, for many reasons. Whatever you think of Jordan Peterson, I think he addresses this concept very well. If someone asks him whether he believes in God, he replies something along the lines of, "I live my life like I do."
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03-31-2019 , 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Lazarus99
Couldn't you just argue that pro sociality itself evolved because it increased fitness and was selected for?
That is the argument, yes. I was trying (maybe unsuccessfully) to contrast "pro-sociality as evolutionarily selected" with stereotypical ideas of "survival of the fittest", which I think tend to get interpreted by some in a more individualistic way.
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03-31-2019 , 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Lazarus99
I kinda agree this is more or less true, but trying to live a life according to this philosophy sounds like a bad idea, for many reasons.
I'm not really even sure what it would mean to live a life according to this philosophy, so I'm not sure I understand you. I'm not sure there even is a moral philosophy here to refer to as "this moral philosophy", per se.

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Originally Posted by Lazarus99
Whatever you think of Jordan Peterson, I think he addresses this concept very well. If someone asks him whether he believes in God, he replies something along the lines of, "I live my life like I do."
I would grant that I think some secularists under-appreciate some prosocial benefits of religion (while being keenly aware of the also important negative aspects), or just how fundamentally human a certain religiosity may be, abstracted away from specific religious groups. I think it's true that social cohesion involves a need for shared beliefs, values, and so on. And religions have found a stable way to address that need (this recent research letter letter in Nature is interesting, on that topic).

But I think people like Peterson might place too much value on existing traditions, and I'm not sure that makes sense either. Religiosity may not be about to disappear and we probably shouldn't want it to do so anyway, but I think we're justified in thinking that a lot of traditional religions have become too far removed from being plausible worldviews to make sense for a lot of people, try though they may. Peterson may find it honestly possible to live as though traditional Christianity were true, but I don't.
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03-31-2019 , 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by well named
I'm not really even sure what it would mean to live a life according to this philosophy, so I'm not sure I understand you. I'm not sure there even is a moral philosophy here to refer to as "this moral philosophy", per se.
I mainly meant moral relativism. Seems it is likely "true" that there is no truth, but we should at least live our lives as if there was, for various reasons.
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03-31-2019 , 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Lazarus99
I mainly meant moral relativism. Seems it is likely "true" that there is no truth, but we should at least live our lives as if there was, for various reasons.
Ah, OK. I get that.

I think it's interesting, one academic discipline that's grappled more with this topic than others is cultural anthropology, because it's traditional for freshly minted anthropologists to do field work in cultures other than their own. Cultural relativism is more or less required, methodologically, but there have been debates about the limits of that idea, or about whether it is really different from moral relativism. One of my favorite anthropologists, Clifford Geertz, once gave a lecture on this topic where he referred to his position as anti anti-relativism, and I share his skepticism of this concern:

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We are being offered a choice of worries. What the relativists, so-called, want us to worry about is provincialism — the danger that our perceptions will be dulled, our intellects constricted, and our sympathies narrowed by the over learned and overvalued acceptances of our own society. What the anti-relativists, self-declared, want us to worry about, and worry about and worry about, as though our very souls depended upon it, is a kind of spiritual entropy, a heat death of the mind, in which everything is as significant, thus as insignificant, as everything else: anything goes, to each his own, you pays your money and you takes your choice. I know what I like, not in the south, tout comprendre, c’est tout pardonner.

As I have already suggested, I myself find provincialism altogether the more real concern so far as what actually goes on in the world. (Though even there, the thing can be overdone: “You might as well fall flat on your face,” one of Thurber’s marvelous “morals” goes, “as lean too far over backward.”) The image of vast numbers of anthropology readers running around in so cosmopolitan a frame of mind as to have no views as to what is and isn’t true, or good, or beautiful, seems to me largely a fantasy. There may be some genuine nihilists out there, along Rodeo Drive or around Times Square, but I doubt very many have become such as the result of an excessive sensitivity to the claims of other cultures; and at least most of the people I meet, read, and read about, and indeed I myself, are all-too-committed to something or other, usually parochial. “’Tis the eye of childhood that fears a painted devil”: anti-relativism has largely concocted the anxiety it lives from.
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03-31-2019 , 10:36 PM
I read the "moralizing Gods" paper. I definitely find it compelling, but I admit I am already predisposed to viewing religion/belief in God as pro adaptive construct in an evolutionary context, so confirmation bias and whatnot.

Going on a related tangent, this is a little blob I wrote recently that explains how "the patriarchy" itself may have been pro-adaptive for development of large agrarian based-societies, and speculate on the consequences of our recent loosening of normative controls on sexuality of fertile females. Obviously, this is just a thought experiment and I didn't do any controlled experiment to test my theories, so take it for what it is:

Spoiler:
Disclaimer: I didn’t come up with all these ideas myself. It is mostly stuff I read and synthesized together in my own way. So, if you think any particular point I am making is plagarization, you are probably right. Also, if you are thinking a particular point is patently absurd and had to have originated from me, you are also probably right.

Also, when reading this post keep in mind that IMO the central problem of all lifeforms, including **** sapiens, is propagation of the gene pool, at the individual and population level. And much of our behavior, both instinctual and learned, can only be properly understood when viewed through this framework.

Anyways, the current narrative making the rounds right now is that the United States (and pretty much every other society that has existed the last 10,000 years or so) is an oppressive patriarchy that elevates men and suppresses women; and this inherently unjust and inequitable system can and should be made right through coercion and political fiat, especially in the higher echelons of our hierarchies. And in doing so it will pave the way for an inclusive, equitable, progressive utopia where we all will get along and live happily ever after (or something to that effect).

Looking at human society from a naturalistic, deterministic perspective (and keeping in mind the basic paradigm) one could assume that if something exists pretty much universally (in this case “the patriarchy”) in a population or in this case an entire species for thousands of years there is probably a strongly selected for adaptive reason. Interestingly, I think dynamics of the online dating marketplace may elucidate how human sexual dynamics may explain how successful human societies pretty much independently came to similar social dynamics, e.g. “the patriarchy” for the last several thousand years.

Anyways, what the swipe right culture has taught us (that to be fair most intellectually honest people already intuitively knew) is that human females are much more selective than human males, which makes perfect sense as the costs of reproduction are so much higher for females than males; and they have historically been responsible for bearing the labor of child rearing for the entirety of mammalian evolution. To cut to the chase, statistics seem to tell us that all else being equal the vast majority of females are only attracted to the top 15% of males, whereas males are much, much, much less discerning.

This would suggest that as opposed to being monogamous, humans may “naturally” in fact be polygynous, much like chimpanzees (and many other mammalian species). And my understanding is that study of pre-historic cultures indicates that proto-humans may have mostly practiced a form of “harem polygyny.”

However, we could imagine that such a dynamic that may have evolved and seem to work well when populations existed in small isolated groups/clans on the plains of East Africa, would not necessarily work very well when a technological innovation changed the rules of the game; in this case the shift from hunter/gatherer to settled, agrarian societies.

Specifically, polygynous societies probably severely limited absolute population size (which would be needed for highly labor intensive agriculture) and also propagated too much inter-society violence (in this case males continually jockeying and fighting for the favor of the harem and access to reproductive rights).

Faced with such a dilemna, evolution of a culture of “enforced monogamy” whereby young females are basically coerced by societal norms “against their nature” to settle early in their reproductive life on a single mate (who would probably be below their attraction standards in a different milieu) would seem to solve this dilemma. Coercion into 1:1 monogamous relationships and the separation of men into the public spheres (mostly as workers) and women as stay at home child carers (which I am sure we can all accept raising multiple small human children at once in such a setting would be more than a full time job) would maximize population growth; and coercing women to mate equitably so most males had access to reproduction would decrease inter-clan tension and violence.

I should note that I don’t think it is appropriate to view this as men vs women battle of the sexes. More likely, it was men AND women cooperating (and in many cases making sacrifices) to create a societal structure adapted to thrive in agrarian societies and raise progeny and perpetuate the gene pool successfully.

Accepting this to be the case, one could definitely argue that recent technological innovations have allowed us to break the chains of this patriarchal structure. That being said, “the patriarchy” survived universally for thousands of years because it worked and was pro-adaptive, given nurture (the environment and technology of the times) and nature (our biologically constrained behavior/instincts).

Ironically, “the patriarchy” may have also been a force that flattened hierarchies and reduced inequity within societies (ie. by allowing all members of society to participate in reproduction and de-incentivizing intra-society competition). It is not clear that current liberal ideology as it pertains to re-fashioning male-female dynamics, although well meaning, will be simarly pro-adaptive or achieve the ends it purports to. And there is some indications it flat out will not. I don’t think it is an accident that there is so much divisiveness, depression and angst, especially among young people today. Obviously, Trump isn’t helping things, but I think he is more a sign of the times than a causal factor of all the current societal issues. I also am not sure that it is an accident that the more we “dismantle the patriarchy” and “liberate” woman and work towards equity and inclusiveness; the more real power disparity seems to be increasing, especially between the “haves” and “have nots,” and this increase in “class” disparity seems to transcend gender and race.
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