How do I tell what level she's at? How do I tell what level I'm at? How can I tell whether a bar is a cougar bar? How can I know who's desperate?

It sounds like you're just assuming proficiency in a number of sophisticated skills. "Winning low stakes poker is easy - just find someone with a worse hand than yours, and get their money in the pot."

But thank you for the ideas. It looks like "cougar bars nyc" is a common Google search, I'll go into the city this weekend and maybe have more success with those than going into random places. A friend told me the bar I had been going to is a terrible place to meet women.

Madnak, have you tried online dating? IMO, at least for the average guy, nothing can be more efficient than that. Write 10 chicks. Odds are at least 1 will respond, so it's just a numbers game. I like the idea of going to cougar bars, but any overall datting/getting laid strategy that doesn't incorporate at least one online dating site is lacking IMO.

IMO, www.plentyoffish.com is one of the best dating sites out there, and its free. I have an account at 3 different dating sites right now. I have average to below average looks, and the online strategy has worked out decently for me over the last 10 years.

The problem with online dating is the girls are average or worse yet a large percentage delusively believe they are higher up on the dating hierarchy.

I've written over a hundred on Craigslist and AFF, the response rate has been abysmal. About 1 in 30, and not leading anywhere.

I agree that response rate is pretty bad and based on that rate alone I will assume that you are average to below average in looks like I am. The only tidbits of advice I have at this point are the strategies I employ myself. Since you seem to be in a similar predicament I will outline to you some ideas I've come up with:

First of all lets assume you want a "cute" girl. (I'll let you define cute anyway you want). One approach that can dramatically increase your chances of getting that cute girl is to look for pockets of inefficiencies in the dating market. Think about cute girls that are not getting their fair share of action/attention. In other words, think about cute girls that guys like Phil153 are less likely to go after. (I assume Phil's hot cuz he talks like a hot guy). For example:

1) Try going after cute girls who have kids. Most Phils will avoid this type of girl since they invariably have more choices.

2) Consider dating outside your race. (I'll assume you're white for sake of discussion) Most white Phils will end up dating white girls. Many non-white girls have strong fetishes for white guys. Thanks to the internet these girls are relatively easy to find. This means you get bonus points just for being white which is a huge plus for an average guy trying to get a cute girl.

3) This is a reiteration of the cougar bar principle. There are cute older women who have fetishes for young guys. Find them and take advantage of the bonus points you get just for being young. Again, the young phils will not bother with this market thus opening up an inefficiency for you to pounce on.

The list can conceivably be much larger than this but the principle is the same. For a below average guy to get an average to above average girl, his best chances are to find an inefficiency in the dating market and exploit it. My last three girlfriends were all Asian chicks who had a strong white guy fetish. This is no accident. They were all hotter than me and I'm certain that if they were white I wouldn't have had a chance with them. I have also dated women who were much older than me or had kids, both of whom were much hotter than me.

Here's one more trick I've perfected with online dating:

4) Write slender chicks with no pics. If a girl is 5'5" 115lbs, odds are she's gonna be cute, but if she has no pic, the Phils of this world are not gonna bother with her. So then you jump in being Mr. Non-Shallow guy who doesn't care about pics and once again you get bonus points just for that act!

There's pockets of inefficiency all over the place. I believe if you fully utilize these pockets, you'll increase your response rate significantly.

i love lamp

Ha! I was like wtf? Then I found it at urbandictionary:

6. LAMP

Acronym for "long ass meaningless post" in a forum. People posting opinons in a forum that are off topic, and continue forever.
I hate LAMP
-That would be a typical reply you would see in a forum topic, that is off topic and/or overly dicussed.

NH sir.

I find it interesting that you just assume that your level of physical attractiveness is an assigned attribute and that it can't be changed and then you go about designing strategies to overcome that. While your strategies are well thought out to me it seems you overlooked just eliminating the problem by improving your looks. Unless you were in some way disfigured in a fire with effort you should be able to get yourself at least to the upper area of average and in most cases guys should be able to get themselves into the lower end of attractive with just basic stuff -- guys who would consider radical efforts such as surgery could even improve more but that is not necessary. If a guy maximizes his looks, learns social skills, and further adds a a few extras he can avoid having to employ those strategies. Why learn how to run with your legs shackled together when you can just take 6-8 months off and learn to pick locks and then run normally?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dsz4dB6DuM (apologies to madnak)

This is a good post. We need to start a thread called Operation Get Madnak Laid. There's no way someone that intelligent and articulate should be without female companionship.

I agree. There are a few huge turnoffs for women:

1. A blubbery body/face
2. Very short (below 5'6"ish)
3. Feminine/pansy looking, or extremely skinny

Of those, only #2 can't be changed. #1 can be completely fixed. #3 can be minimized through hair, exercise and attitude. Other physical traits aren't very important in dating. Stuff like being a bit odd looking, having crazy eyes, a big nose, crooked teeth, gangly, etc comes a distant second to personality and approach for most women.

If 1 and 3 apply to you, fixing them will put a lot of pussy in your reach. Not far behind good looking guys.

It comes down to genuine confidence...Not just in your bull**** little mental world (Yeah, I can tell myself I'm the man so I must be the man...Not.)...

Your confidence must drive you to real, tangible action. This includes approaching girls, feeling genuinely secure when talking to them, and being reasonably unfazed by flatout rejection. You need to be able to constantly put your chips on the line and just not give a ****.

I have heard my entire life that I am a good looking guy and I significantly underachieve in terms of female volume. Many guys I know have done much better in the women department simply because they have undeniable confidence and utilize it in going the whole nine yards when approaching/landing a potential lay/date/girlfriend. As soon as I face a deterrent, I may use the "theres other fish in the sea" excuse and simply give up, leave the bar, not call the girl who gave me her number...etc..

For all of you guys out there who think its about looks, its not. You need to get confident swings in..Once your taking genuine hacks at every pitch that comes your way, something will definitely work out.

I don't believe anyone would disagree with this. Normally looks and confidence are highly correlated though. More accurately a combination of looks, previous success with women, and how successful someone is at life in general is highly correlated with confidence.

I think I agree with the statement you are trying to make but not the wording. Yes you have to take shots but "hacks at every pitch" implies no standards. Now that will certainly get you laid but who wants to have sex with a fat / ugly girl. The more selective you are the better so long as you are realistic. Going after girls below you because they are easier will in the end lower your standing in the dating hierarchy.

Well, I thought it might be implied that the pitch has to be in your strikezone before you hack at it

Easier said than done.

Well, I can't take 6-8 months off, ever. I'll rest when I'm dead.

But learning to pick locks is easy. There's feedback, you can follow a systematic process, and you can practice to your heart's content.

Social skills are a different thing. No feedback (this is the worst part), no process, most situations involve no learning, and practice is limited by thresholds and by preparation time, etc.

By take 6-8 months off I meant basically to improve physical appearance. That would be a conservative amount of time for someone to start working out and get results, start a skin regimen, replace wardrobe and spend some time getting into a mental state. I believe if a person starts while still a work in progress it can be discouraging if they don't get the results they expect.

Ah, well, I've been doing that for some time now. I think it'll be a few more years before I can construct a decent wardrobe, that's hard to the point of impossibility, but I'm not as bad as I used to be. Frankly, if someone has no idea which clothing "looks good" and which doesn't, they can't be expected to do that in a matter of months. I've made plenty of attempts to get rid of my acne, I'll probably just give up and start Accutane right now in fact (I have a dermatologist appointment day after tomorrow), but it's been under control for a couple of years. I went into the new semester by doing the Starting Strength routine, and I've already put on over 10 pounds (in ~3 weeks). Of course, I'm 168 and I don't think I was all that skinny before, not like I used to be. I was 140 about 3 years ago (at 6'1"), and I've been getting more regular exercise since then (and eating better).

In other words, I'm much more physically attractive now than I was then, and I've done about everything I reasonably can do in terms of systematically improving my appearance. I need my teeth straightened and whitened, but that's not a huge problem, and I could maybe stand to work on my posture, I'm hoping strength and flexibility training help with that, but otherwise I'm fine.

But none of that helps if I don't know how to navigate these mazes. And that's not something I can systematically work on. I can stay out there and keep moving in jumps and starts, getting the occasional clues, but obviously I still haven't gotten far enough to know what's going on around me.

I agree with the spirit of your post Henry, and I have been working on many of the things you mentioned. I think it's a truism to say that some people are destined to be average or below average no matter how hard they work on these areas. I'm not sure if I fall into this category or not. I think the key to my overall strategy is that it can work whether you're hot, average, or below average. I think any time we can put ourselves in a situation where we can increase our probability of dating a cute girl we have done a good thing.

^^This

Learn to take a hint.

Edit: I didn't realize this thread was so long... some pretty good stuff in here imo. Madnak, read Double Your Dating. A lot of what you're saying sounds like it might've come from my mouth perhaps five years ago, and this book helped change my perspective.

Also, the proposed classifications earlier in the thread as to where girls rank guys (romantic/sexytime, interesting, creep) is wrong. The actual categories are long-term romantic interest, interesting/fun/mysterious, the friend zone, and creepers.

Women actually hold sex back from the long-term interests, because putting out right away is counterproductive to their goals (why buy the cow when the milk is free). Fun/interesting guys should be able to seal the deal within a few encounters, assuming they run tight enough game. People in the friend zone will never get sexytime ever, and creeps are self explanatory.

It's also not so hard to dress reasonably well. If you're an adult, some dress shoes, a dark pair of jeans, a black sweater or tshirt, and a leather jacket works pretty well. Keep it simple, but classy.

Girls want and enjoy sex just as much as men do. This belief that women date only to get a long term mate is simply wrong.

Of course they can. I have a fairly good grasp on fashion yet I have someone who dresses me. Pretty much any upmarket clothing store will have personal shoppers who will take care of this for you. I believe I would do ok if I tried to buy my own clothing but why do that when there is someone who can do it better? If your budget is such that you can't shop at the type of stores that offer this service you can just look at the mannequins as they are almost always well dressed or start reading GQ and stealing ideas from the magazine.

You are tall, intelligent, and willing to put in effort you should be able to pull this off.

Not sure if you caught this, but I love lamp is an Anchorman reference.

Ha! I totally missed that!

That's hilarious that I came to a completely different explanation that actually made sense.

Well, let me amend my statement. If I have enough money to really explore clothing, then I can learn how to dress. But I can't afford even $20/month expenditure right now. When I'm working I'll be able to afford that in theory, but I don't think clothes are a limiting factor.

madnak, use LOA to get rid of your acne imo. I cannot believe I haven't been following this thread, it actually makes me giddy. Madnak is by far my favorite poster on 2p2 and I have always imagined him as older and good looking and wealthy.

I agree clothes aren't a limiting factor. You mentioned you could probably work on your posture. I think that is probably the best possible thing you can do as far as a cost/benefit ratio is concerned.

Just standing in public and switching from bad posture to good posture will make you feel very different. You will probably think you look like an arrogant prick, and you might, but you'll ease into it.

I was lucky enough to have a lot of success with girls in high school, and since it has been irregular, then I broke up with my gf back in feb. At first I was hung up then I just couldn't get any for nothing for a long time. Obviously could be any variety of things but I started practicing shambhala meditation from some mp3s i downloaded and a big thing the guys says is to constantly monitor your posture. Within three weeks of working on my posture a slutty hot girl that sort of is around my social group basically threw herself at me. During that time we met this other girl who was hanging out and even though I was all over first said girl the first time, the second time i saw her like two weeks later she was very very open to me and we hooked up too.

you'll get yours in time buddy

I imagined him as poor and fat and a bit of a deviant. The internet is weird.

How the **** are you that poor madnak? This is an internet poker site and anyone with a bit of self control and an IQ above 80 or so should be able to win at least $150/week by putting in 5-10 hours. Especially in games like PLO/PLO8 or stud.

Hell, I'd even bankroll you for a few grand.

Acne can definitely be a confidence killer...

Maybe you know some of these, but if not, I've found them incredibly helpful over the years...

1. Eat one cup of yogurt every day. The bacteria cultures in yogurt do an awesome job eliminating the bacteria on your skin.

2. Avoid excess sugars as much as possible...candy bars, soda, sweets...anything of this sort remove it from your diet ASAP. (If you absolutely love soda and can't give it up, then drink diet.)

3. Reduce your carbohydrate intake also.

4. Eat plenty of green and orange veggies...carrots, broccoli, sweet potatoes, salads...these have high levels of vitamin A which will help heal your skin.

5. Basic hygiene practices you may have never thought of before...like washing your sheets and pillowcase once a week, keeping your shaver clean...basically anything that touches your skin..keep it clean.

Ok since I like to read your posts, I decided to come out of the shadows. Now back to lurking. Good luck to you.