Just bc people chose A instead of B doesn't mean they think A's impact dwarfs B's. This is like Rotten Tomatoes vs IMDB.

If BB had Peyton and TB had Dungy, I think the BB and Peyton duo win more. Saying BB was more valuable than TB would admittedly now be wrong but I don't know that Tom was a better QB than BB was as a defensive coach. They're peers in the pantheon. Ernie Adams might've been BB's mystery-man secret weapon, but BB was Parcell's publicly known one.

I honestly think that was maybe the biggest demerit to Tom, vis-a-vis Peyton. It's not that Peyton was in commercials, it was that reading between-the-lines it was clear who BB thought was better: Peyton.

If BB had sung TB's praises the way Reid does with Mahomes, it all would've played out differently imo. Opinions of Tom publicly as well as his ending with the team. Ironically, Tom never would've really gotten his due the way he did once he left and stood alone atop the mountain in Tampa.

In mid-2016? The poll wasn't made in 2003. Crazy? I dunno, how about just dead wrong and likely influenced by bias against a guy because it meant their other hero could be the GOAT or whatever? I don't know why people think what they do, but I think it is pretty clear that it was blatantly wrong.

I'm no MENSA member and you can go back through the thread, I figured it out with ease.

Emphasis and rule changes favoring offense started over a decade before this thread started.

Ok, well the way I answered the poll was the totality of their collaboration at the time. Not specific to that present moment in 2016.

I'm assuming you didn't really answer the question directly but it reads like you think it's dead wrong to say that Kyle Shannahan is more valuable than Purdy. Is that right?

That is a ton of mental gymnastics man. You think the thread results were what they were because BB didn't sing TB's praises? Umm, I wouldn't know how to answer that.


People either had bad analysis or bias (or perhaps they're still correct and ran bad with results or new results don't matter), I'm sure of the 111 that voted, it varies for everyone. Don't look now but TB gaining, up to 37. Think he was like high 20 range when thread started getting bumped.

I have no clue, I'd have to see a bigger sample size with Purdy/Shanahan. 13 games vs 15 years together is not remotely apples to apples. It wasn't a good comparison.

The totality of their collaboration at the time would've had Brady as more valuable. It was mid 2016, he had been a top 3 QB in the league for 13 years. That is more valuable than a coach IMO.

I answered it the same way, I thought everyone did. But how is that relevant to Shanny/Purdy that have been together like 13 games?

No chance. Brady's a much better quarterback than Peyton. All the advanced stats back this up. Peyton's rep is puffed up because he played 9 games in a year in a dome, throwing to Pro Bowlers. That's like saying Todd Helton is the best hitter because he's great in Colorado.

The average Patriots defense during the Brady-Belichick era was 13th in the league.

The average Patriots offense during the Brady-Belichick era was 5th in the league.

That's with the Patriots spending more resources on Defense than on Offense.

We know, for certain, that Brady was a better QB than BB was a defensive coach.

He did and does. BB has always said that Brady is the best offensive player in the history of the NFL (he loves him some Lawrence Taylor) and there's no QB he'd rather have. He's said it over and over and over again in press conferences, for 2 decades. During Peyton's prime:

After Tom retired.

Honestly, guys, if Belichick thought Peyton was better than Brady, that would be an enormous knock against him.

That's directed at this:

Just in general that a coach can be more valuable than a winning qb

Reads like you think that point alone is laughable

This is my first post in the thread.

None of this sounds like breathtaking analysis

Also, forgetting the coach vs QB thing, which I tried to frame it as.

The other issue is BB just probably got overrated as this deity like coaching/GM figure becausse he had Brady. Read the thread, people aren't saying "oh he's a great defensive mind", they're saying he's >>>>>> every other coach in the league and it isn't close. I think he's a great coach but given the sample is almost 200 games now and he's sub .500 without Brady, the idea he is basically the 2000 Shaq of coaching is probably not correct.

No clue how good Purdy is. If he's an elite generational top 5-10 OAT QB then I'd think he is more valuable than Shanahan.

He probably isn't that. Once we establish that, then it is just an entirely different discussion.

What is the cutoff line for this? Do I really have to find it? I just think Brady was more valuable than Belichick and the returns coming in on that would suggest it may have merit. And while opinions can vary, if BB can't turn this around and his NE tenure ends like this, I do think that obviously enhances Brady's legacy. You're already seeing some national media talk offer mea culpas about thinking BB was more valuable.

Selective lip service.

He gushes over Peyton. He tried to replace Tom with Jimmy G and then wouldn't pay him at the end.

To be clear, he would've gushed over TB if he had to gameplan for him.

I think BB is a dick and prbly a narcissist fwiw.

lol, I see, you're trolling. You got me!

k

yeah, cmon that's thin.

Brady was old then and he didn't wanna get caught with his pants down having an old QB fall off cliff, also obviously has an ego like anyone else and thought he could win without him. Which we are obviously seeing now with his hubris moves of wasting a year on Cam Newton or lack of urgency in building an offense. He bought into the system stuff just as much as people in this thread did.


Shifting the subject to BB a bit, the far less polarizing of the two, what happens if this is really it for him and he just ends his career in obscurity losing with the Pats?

Similar to Popovich after the 2014 finals, he was the GOAT. It wasn't even close, I mean he whooped a QB's ass in this thread like 80-20. And similar to Popovich, he stayed on too long and now is just back in the discussion rather than running away with it.

How far does his legacy fall? I think he definitely won't be called the undisputed GOAT much anymore, but he'll probably still be considered 1 of the best coaches of all time. Also, obviously no one cares about who the best coaches of all time are so that helps him some.

k, Jimmy G tho

And you think any other coach wouldn't have paid Brady at the end? Really? BB went Krause on the situation.

Look at Pitt, NO, and GB* as recent examples. Teams go with their GOATs unless a Luck or Steve Young falls in their lap.

* GB was committed to Rodgers at the end, he just wasn't committed to them

I don't really see what this has to do with the discussion either way. You think BB didn't/doesn't think Brady was the best QB in the league? He's said he has numerous times. If he's lying then so be it I guess.

Brady was older than all of those guys and looking for a multi-year extension. I dunno, ego probably got the best of him after every other star player he got rid of for like 20 years ended up working out in his favor. You tend to believe your own hype after awhile, we're all humans. He probably thought Jimmy could be a top tier QB in his system. Shanahan also chose Jimmy over Brady after 2019.

Also, like many others, I'm sure he thought Brady's disastrous 2019 had a lot to do with his decline as a player rather than the fact BB put horrible offensive personnel around him that year and it finally caught up to them.


Keep in mind, BB had not seen the reality of the NFL without an elite QB for a long ass time by the time the end of 2017 and 2020 offseasons came around.

Whereas someone like Reid saw it basically from '05-17 depending on how you feel about McNabb, perhaps every year of his coaching career before Mahomes came along.

It's crazy that in 2023 a pro-Brady contingent is telling me that I'm wrong to say that BB didn't properly appreciate Tom Brady.

Your estimation of what BB thought of Jimmy G is inflated. He could have kept him, or reacquired him after Brady left. There was never a chance Belichick was going to choose JG over TB.

And if I’m wrong - don’t you see how it tells us Belichick is overrated? Brady left, went to Tampa, immediately showed he was the best deep passer in the NFL and won a 7th Super Bowl with a moron coach and coordinator in Tampa.

Maybe there is something about Tom Brady that leads people to overrate themselves and their own abilities when working with him?

Leftwich could've been coaching Trevor Lawrence for atleast 5 years and built a career off TB the way all the NE coaches did but he said screw it, lemme get another ring and then I'll decide what to do after that.


And no one really said you were wrong to say BB didn't appreciate Brady, but your idea that he didn't speak glowingly enough about him influenced some type of QB GOAT discussion is a bit too sports radio for me, sorry.

Yes?

I'm willing to be wrong. In fact, I've already said I was.

Brady's playoff record vs 28+ isn't a winning record, you can prove your point without making stuff up

You're totally right, I flip flopped one game in the 28+ count, and then I missed the most recent loss to Dallas last winter (db wasn't updated with 2022 playoffs). I apologize. I don't think that Dallas loss is included in any of these numbers.

When an opponent scores 28+,
Brady is 5-7
Rodgers is 1-7

When an opponent scores 20+
Brady is 18-12
Rodgers is 5-9

When an opponent scores between 20-30
Brady is 16-7
Rodgers is 4-3

Good catch!

Looks like Broncos fans begin to wonder if Drew Brees carried Sean Payton..

Just to piggyback off of this, I wouldn't mind seeing Brady splits something like his playoff games split into first 24 playoff games, then last 24. Or playoff games from 2001-2010 vs 2011-2020