but we're talking about him as a coach not as a gm

and every gm is going to be making mistakes and get it wrong from time to time

look i'm a lifelong pats fan

the post brady years have been very sobering

i used to think it was belichick and while brady was an elite talent - he mostly thrived because he was in the right system

he leaves and continues to win and the pats collapse

i've dramatically changed my outlook based on that

but I'd still say that Belichick is still one of the greatest coaches ever

Completely agree

I find it interesting that the consensus view by 3:1 ITT was Belichick was more valuable than Brady, and now BB is and always was a hack

but the consensus view was wrong + clouded by bias because of how polarizing Brady is. Read back the thread, people were saying BB could win with Blaine Gabbert and every move he makes ends up working out.

I dunno, seems kinda convenient the timeline is something like genius 2001-2019.....Washed 2020-2023 thus has nothing to do with his prime. He just had the best player in the league covering a lot up and creating a floor that no other coach has ever enjoyed for that prolonged period of time.

If people really believe that then to each their own, I guess. Can't definitively prove they're wrong.

He was considered >>>>>>> every coach, if that were true then his results over close to 200 games w/o Brady probably wouldn't be what they are.



Also, da nit is just trolling. He said he thinks the Patriots could've had nearly as much success with Fitzpatrick at QB so there is that.

Over the 2001-2019 genius timeframe they also went 14-6 with Cassel, Garoppolo, Brissett, and Stidham, so people could be forgiven for extrapolating that to Gabbert/Fitzpatrick at the time. In hindsight I definitely overrated BB's responsibility for their dynasty, but think people are succumbing to recency bias by swinging wildly to the other end of the pendulum that he was meh and just rode TB's coattails.

cassel & garoppolo had warts but definitely put up strong seasons with other teams and were highly desired free agents

brisset was always more of a fill in for other teams but still had 46 NFL starts for other teams vs 2 with the pats

i don't think stidham ever started an nfl game so it feels weird to include him over people like Brian Hoyer (who is now starting NFL games)

point is - that's a fantastically talented rotation of backup qbs and I doubt he'd have gone 14-6 if he had the typical quality backup qb play most other coaches have when their starter is not available

few other coaches were so fortunate that when their starter got hurt their backup was a guy who'd go on to pro bowls invites and 100 million contracts with other teams

at the time though it kind of felt like they were molded from the patriot way whereas now it seems pretty clear that bb just sun ran at drafting qbs late who were nfl quality

Obviously he is/was a great coach. How great? Probably not to the point that he was just miles and miles better than everyone else like it was suggested. Payton went like 8-0 without Brees in 2019 and 2020 I believe. Just because you can do that for a stretch, it is hard to sustain. Look at him now. I guess people can pretend he's "washed up" too.

I think all of the 14-6 is Cassell/JimmyG with Brissett being 1-1 though. The others never started. Most of this is with a roster that went 16-0 the year before and had a way easier schedule.


You can forgive people for extrapolating 14-6 with that and thinking it could be sustained if you want I guess, I think that's terrible analysis and said it at the time in this thread. I would guess most weren't making good faith arguments when saying stuff like that anyway.

Anyone that follows football should know the value of an elite QB. And there isn't some proprietary offensive "system" to create 1. This is/was all common sense to me.

good call on Hoyer. i'm bad at research.

clearly i'm the crazy one here, so i'll let it rest and accept BB sun ran drafting QBs and has reverted to his true **** form without TB making him look good

one last thing: jimmy g is a fraud who benefited from top 5 o-line and defenses that had him perpetually up two scores throwing against 8 men in the box. he's now being exposed (after being overpaid again) by throwing more INTs than TDs despite having adams. that is all. thank you.

I agree with you he is a great coach.

Don't think anyone reasonable thinks otherwise. But all coaches are only as good as their players and I think when they develop great players, people have a tendency to think it can be replicated a little easier than it can be. And if you go 20 years strong without needing to develop another QB then who is really to say other than using common sense.

Belichick has now coached 180 games without Brady - that's 11+ seasons.

He's at 80-100. 44.4% winning percentage, one playoff win. He's had a top 8 offense exactly once in those 11 seasons.

Belichick is now tied with Chip Kelly for winning percentage without Tom Brady.

Some coaches who've won more than 44.4% of their games without Tom Brady:
Zac Taylor
Joe Philbin
Jerry Glanville
Dan Campbell
Ray Rhodes
Lovie Smith
Rex Ryan

With a poor start to next season, he'll fall behind Sam Wyche and Tony Sparano.

How much will the 84-103 or whatever it is without Brady hurt his legacy? Certainly not a small sample. My guess is not much because no one really cares who the best coaches of all time are. It isn't like there is a Vince Lombardi or Don Shula twitter contingent ready to celebrate his demise. Or emerging Andy Reid truthers. The only reason it is even discussed is usually as a way to diminish great players that got the benefit of being coached by them compared to others that didn't.

But it will be 1 of those things that gets brought up in the discussion around his career, similar to how it is hard to talk how great Manning is without bringing up his playoff record or struggles.



I think his failings post-Brady probably just re-center the conversation around jims and joes vs Xs and Os though. That is the last time you will have people thinking the coach is more valuable than the best player on an elite team for a long time.

I don't think it will matter. How many of those other coaches coaches got garbage rosters for 200 games.
It's not like Lombardi or whoever were trotting out Mac Jones types to the Superbowl.

If you look at those rosters (which to be fair for some he did a horrible job as gm) did he really underachieve with them?



It's also safe to say he's definitely lost a few steps as coach relative to 20 years ago. But when a great player hangs on and sucks for a few years at the end nobody really holds it against them.

update!:

wins in 2023
hoodie - 4
bardy - 0


goat oat

At season's end, if Tom Brady announced that he was looking to be a Head Coach in the NFL, would he have been hired for one of the openings that everyone has passed on Belichick for?

Indianapolis would have been excited. Other than that? Doubtful.